Free Republic
Browse · Search
General/Chat
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Could the “Lost” Islands of Ancient Welsh Folklore Really Have Existed? Scientists Say Yes
Scitech Daily ^ | Sept 12, 2022 | By SWANSEA UNIVERSITY & University Of Oxford

Posted on 09/12/2022 1:01:57 PM PDT by Red Badger

Old Map Islands

The study was inspired by the Gough map, which depicts two “lost” islands in Cardigan Bay offshore west Wales, United Kingdom.

A new study of coastal geography finds that the lost islands mentioned in Welsh folklore and poetry are plausible. New evidence on the evolution of west Wales’ coastline has shown a Welsh tradition going back to the medieval era of a landscape lost to the sea is plausible.

The researchers from Swansea University and the University of Oxford suggest how two islands came into being and subsequently vanished using geological data and a medieval map.

The study was inspired by the Gough Map, the oldest surviving map of Great Britain. The map is believed to have potentially originated from the thirteenth century and is currently housed in Oxford’s Bodleian Library.

The map depicts two lost islands in Cardigan Bay in west Wales. Each of them is roughly one-quarter the size of the north Wales island of Anglesey. One is between Aberystwyth and Aberdovey, while the other is between there and Barmouth to the north.

Cardigan Bay Erosion

New research has shown that “lost islands” mentioned in Welsh folklore, could be the remnants of a low-lying landscape underlain by soft glacial deposits laid down during the last ice age. Since then, forces of erosion have worn away the land, reducing it to islands, before these too were worn away and disappeared by the sixteenth century. Credit: Prof Simon Haslett, Swansea University

Simon Haslett, Honorary Professor of Physical Geography at Swansea University, and David Willis, Jesus Professor of Celtic at the University of Oxford, conducted the research.

Their research analyzes historical sources as well as geological evidence from the seafloor and shoreline. It suggests a model for how the coast has grown since the last ice age 10,000 years ago, which provides a possible explanation for the ‘lost’ islands.

Black Book of Carmarthen

The Black Book of Carmarthen (1250 approx) is believed to be the earliest surviving complete manuscript written in the Welsh language. This extract says, in Welsh: “Stand forth, Seithenhin, and look upon the fury of the sea; it has covered Maes Gwyddneu.” The new research on the evolution of the coastline in west Wales suggests that claims such as this of a drowned land are plausible. Credit: Llyfrgell Genedlaethol Cymru/National Library of Wales

They speculate that the islands are the remains of a low-lying terrain underlain by soft glacial deposits from the last ice age. Since then, erosional processes have worn away the land, reducing it to islands, before these too were worn away and disappeared by the sixteenth century.

As finer sediments of glacial deposits are eroded away, the larger gravel and boulder component is left on the seafloor. The position of the islands coincides with the location of submarine accumulations of gravel and boulders, known locally as sarns.

Simon Haslett and David Willis Prof David Willis (l), Jesus Professor of Celtic at the University of Oxford, and Prof Simon Haslett (r) Emeritus professor of geography at Swansea University. Their research showed that myths about lost islands on the west Wales coast were plausible. Credit: Prof Simon Haslett, Swansea University

Professor Simon Haslett of Swansea University Department of Geography said: “We know that the west Wales coast has changed significantly over time. Evidence from the Roman cartographer Ptolemy suggests the coastline 2000 years ago may have been some 13 km further out to sea than it is today. The Gough Map is extraordinarily accurate considering the surveying tools they would have had at their disposal at that time, and the two islands are clearly marked.”

He continues, “Our research increases our understanding of potential coastal processes acting along the coast of Cardigan Bay. It can also help with future research on post-glacial evolution of similar lowlands in other parts of northwest Europe. Understanding coastline dynamics has never been more important. Some towns along the area we studied are vulnerable to climate and sea-level change, and it has been suggested that it may lead to some of the first climate change refugees in the UK.”

David Willis, Jesus Professor of Celtic Studies at the University of Oxford, said: “Our evidence may provide an explanation of how the story of Cantre’r Gwaelod (‘The Hundred of the Bottom’) may have arisen. This lost land is said to have suffered a catastrophic inundation and is referred to in poetry in the Black Book of Carmarthen and in later folklore.”

Reference: “The ‘lost’ islands of Cardigan Bay, Wales, UK: insights into the post-glacial evolution of some Celtic coasts of northwest Europe” by Simon K. Haslett and David Willis, 11 June 2022, Atlantic Geoscience. DOI: 10.4138/atlgeo.2022.005


TOPICS: History; Outdoors; Travel; Weird Stuff
KEYWORDS: cardiganbay; ggg; godsgravesglyphs; goughmap; history; mabinogeon; sinkinglands; thesinkinglands; uk; unitedkingdom; wales
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-2021-4041-48 next last
To: Red Badger

Cool.


21 posted on 09/12/2022 3:15:35 PM PDT by Robert A Cook PE (Method, motive, and opportunity: No morals, shear madness and hatred by those who cheat.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: Myrddin; Red Badger

How do spell-check the Welsh on-line spell check dictionary?


22 posted on 09/12/2022 3:17:12 PM PDT by Robert A Cook PE (Method, motive, and opportunity: No morals, shear madness and hatred by those who cheat.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 17 | View Replies]

To: Robert A Cook PE

Welsh is easy to spell check.

When it looks wrong, it’s correct.


23 posted on 09/12/2022 3:31:21 PM PDT by seowulf (Civilization begins with order, grows with liberty, and dies with chaos...Will Durant)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies]

the rest of the Wales keyword, sorted:

24 posted on 09/12/2022 4:22:41 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (Imagine an imaginary menagerie manager imagining managing an imaginary menagerie.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: Red Badger; StayAt HomeMother; Ernest_at_the_Beach; 1ofmanyfree; 21twelve; 24Karet; ...
Yeah, pretty much. Bran the Blessed (Welsh folkloric figure) was so large, no house could hold him nor ship bear him. He and his brothers had to cross to Ireland over a family matter, and he steadied himself on one of the watercraft and waded up to his neck to get there. Again, folklore. Thanks Red Badger.

25 posted on 09/12/2022 4:23:42 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (Imagine an imaginary menagerie manager imagining managing an imaginary menagerie.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: seowulf

Ouch.


26 posted on 09/12/2022 4:38:36 PM PDT by Robert A Cook PE (Method, motive, and opportunity: No morals, shear madness and hatred by those who cheat.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: SunkenCiv; Red Badger

You do realize that “now” I’m going to have to spend most of tomorrow morning clucking on every one of those links. Don’t you?


27 posted on 09/12/2022 4:40:52 PM PDT by Robert A Cook PE (Method, motive, and opportunity: No morals, shear madness and hatred by those who cheat.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 24 | View Replies]

To: SunkenCiv
Saw the name Bran Blessed, and couldn't help but remember British actor Brian Blessed. When I did a search for him, this recent article came up:

Brian Blessed claims 'Flash Gordon' was the Queen's favourite film

28 posted on 09/12/2022 5:01:42 PM PDT by mass55th ("Courage is being scared to death, but saddling up anyway." ~~ John Wayne )
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 25 | View Replies]

To: Robert A Cook PE
I have Y Geiriadur Mawr == the big dictionary. In addition, some learner's dictionaries, phrase books, idioms. Google translate does a reasonable job of translation. When learning the language, you need to learn southern, mid-valley and northern dialects because people are much more mobile today. Ordinarily, a dialect arises from geographic isolation. TV, radio, planes, trains and autos have broken the lock of isolation on Welsh dialects. Ireland has almost 200 dialects of Irish Gaelic.

The song Tan y Llyn in a video has the Welsh and English together. The music is performed in Welsh. Tan yn Llyn

Spell check can be challenging because Welsh has a variety of mutations: contact, nasal, aspirant that make words flow together better. Irish Gaelic and Scots Gaelic have similar rules with broad/slender consonants/vowels and lenition to make spoken language flow better.

29 posted on 09/12/2022 6:56:35 PM PDT by Myrddin
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies]

To: Bratch

That was when the Rhine and the Thames were the same river.


30 posted on 09/12/2022 7:36:55 PM PDT by blam
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies]

To: Red Badger

The Welsh should have shutdown their coal and natural gas and nuclear power plants so this would not have happened...


31 posted on 09/13/2022 12:36:43 AM PDT by minnesota_bound (Need more money to buy everything now)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Myrddin

Slightly different from modern Welsh, but readable.

Are you sure????........................ 🤔

32 posted on 09/13/2022 5:12:56 AM PDT by Red Badger (Homeless veterans camp in the streets while illegal aliens are put up in hotels.....................)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies]


33 posted on 09/13/2022 5:20:27 AM PDT by SunkenCiv (Imagine an imaginary menagerie manager imagining managing an imaginary menagerie.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: Robert A Cook PE

I wouldn’t blame ya. Of course, if the titles were in Welsh, the list could have been much longer...


34 posted on 09/13/2022 5:23:14 AM PDT by SunkenCiv (Imagine an imaginary menagerie manager imagining managing an imaginary menagerie.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 27 | View Replies]

To: mass55th

:^)


35 posted on 09/13/2022 5:24:03 AM PDT by SunkenCiv (Imagine an imaginary menagerie manager imagining managing an imaginary menagerie.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 28 | View Replies]

To: Robert A Cook PE; SunkenCiv

That’s a Wale of a list!......................


36 posted on 09/13/2022 5:42:06 AM PDT by Red Badger (Homeless veterans camp in the streets while illegal aliens are put up in hotels.....................)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 27 | View Replies]

To: Red Badger
That's a famous sign at the railway station on Ynys Mon. Anglesey to English speakers.
37 posted on 09/13/2022 7:55:43 AM PDT by Myrddin
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 32 | View Replies]

To: SunkenCiv
Welsh place names are descriptive. Pen (end). Pont (bridge). Pen-y-Bont (end of the bridge). English name: Bridgend. Cities at the mouth of a river begin with Aber. Aberystwyth, Aberaeron, Abertawe(Swansea). Military castles (forts) start with Caer. Caerdydd (Cardiff, day fort). Caerfyrddin (Myrddin's fort...Merlin the magician). Church locations start with Llan. Llanfihangel-y-Creuddyn (Mihangel (michael's church), Llanafon (river church). Cwm is a valley. Cwmystwyth is a town in the Ystwyth river valley. Pontrhydygroes--> Pont (bridge), groes (croes...cross), rhyd (a river ford). This location is a crossroads that fords the river.

Check how the map link shows the descriptive nature of Pontrhydygroes.

My great grandfather lived in a house on the road at this link and worked in the lead mines on the lower right. His house was still standing when I visited in 1997. Ystbyty Ystwyth

38 posted on 09/13/2022 8:30:23 AM PDT by Myrddin
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 34 | View Replies]

To: Myrddin

Thanks!


39 posted on 09/13/2022 8:40:03 AM PDT by SunkenCiv (Imagine an imaginary menagerie manager imagining managing an imaginary menagerie.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 38 | View Replies]

To: mware
Brigadoon, a mysterious Scottish village that appears for only one day every 100 years...

That Brigadoon?

40 posted on 09/13/2022 8:49:40 AM PDT by GOPJ (Edward Biden's 'WAR ON THE AMERICAN PEOPLE' speech is history's Jimmah Carter's BIG RABBIT blunder..)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-2021-4041-48 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
General/Chat
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson