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To: TheBrotherhood

"If all of Western civilization succumbs to the evolutionists ..."

Don't go all postal on me, Bucky. Evolution is a tool, whether in the hands of a scientist, a farmer, or the Creator.

Civilizations don't fall because of the development or utilization of tools.

5,301 posted on 02/21/2006 6:12:15 PM PST by NicknamedBob (Islamists say we shouldn't make a mockery of religion -- funny, that's the problem I have with them!)

"To include him, he'd have had to paint his image, which is the BIG no-no, or so I hear."

Well duh!! How do they know it's him?

5,302 posted on 02/21/2006 6:15:00 PM PST by NicknamedBob (Islamists say we shouldn't make a mockery of religion -- funny, that's the problem I have with them!)

To: NicknamedBob

If I add up all of the energy in the unverse, convert all matter (and anti-matter) to energy and add that in, and express that grand sum as E_all is that a constant or a variable?

5,303 posted on 02/21/2006 6:19:51 PM PST by HKMk23 (Tengo una remera del Che y no se por que.)

To: NicknamedBob

How do they know it's him?

Yeah?! Good question? What'll they do if some Hindu guy shows up claiming to be Mohammed reincarnated? Not like they've got paintings to point to and prove him wrong.

5,304 posted on 02/21/2006 6:23:49 PM PST by HKMk23 (Tengo una remera del Che y no se por que.)

To: NicknamedBob

"Don't go all postal on me, Bucky."

I did not go "postal" on you, and my name is not Bucky, pal.

I neither agreed nor disagreed on your post. I simply exposed the truth, but you're free to agree or disagree with it and that does not make you a bad person.

Back to the red pen analogy:

Me: me gotta a red pen in my hand.

You: no, it's a hyppopotamus you got in your hand.

At this point one either partakes in the insane dialects and risk becoming insane oneself, or simply walk away.

I'm walking away, pal.

(Ideas are more important than fancy and flowery words and ready-made, custom fit phrases. Me wanna see food on the table, not a book.)

5,305 posted on 02/21/2006 6:25:46 PM PST by TheBrotherhood (Tancredo for President.)

"... express that grand sum as E_all is that a constant or a variable?"

It depends.

Even though the steady state theory is out of favor, there could be the occasional spontaneous generation of matter because of quantum wobbles, or something.

Then there's also the matter, so to speak, of dark matter. Depending on its nature, and where it comes from, (and when!), perhaps not All matter is accounted for at any one time.

From the standpoint, or view, of most astrophysicists, it probably doesn't make much difference.

I'm inclined to partake of a tiny bit of steady-statism, just to keep things spicy.

5,306 posted on 02/21/2006 6:31:28 PM PST by NicknamedBob (Islamists say we shouldn't make a mockery of religion -- funny, that's the problem I have with them!)

To: TheBrotherhood

...Western civilization succumbs to the evolutionists...

Actually, I've met plenty of folks on BOTH sides of that issue that would prove to be the end of Western culture were it to succumb to them. [shudder] Track back up-thread and understand that, between me and NnB, our dominant points are, "Nobody's changning their mind on it", and "Here ain't the place for it." Even my angle on having a discussion about the discussion may cut a bit too close to the bone for some. To put a fine point on it: "crevo" is to UT as kryptonite is to Superman. We treat is similarly.

Thank you for sharing. And shall we take our next caller, please?

5,307 posted on 02/21/2006 6:34:13 PM PST by HKMk23 (Tengo una remera del Che y no se por que.)

To: NicknamedBob

Well, I'm supposing that every last erg and dyne gets caputerd in this figure at a given universal instant. I futher suppose that the same trick is repeated at some later time and the values compared.

The question can obviously only be entertained in a philosophical sense. But I think it an interesting idea to ponder. Even an oscillating model of the universe might have a constant E_all

If E_all isn't constant, is it increasing or decreasing, and where is the energy coming from or going to? If there's another "Where" that gives or takes energy from our universe, then I would contend that our model of our universe is incomplete to the extent that this other "where" is currently excluded.

So, say we incorporate "otherwhere" into a fresh, new model of "the universe" and, to avoid doing this recursively, further suppose that all existing successive "otherwheres" are also likewise incoporated. Now, redo the calculation of E_all Do we NOW have a constant or a variable?

5,308 posted on 02/21/2006 6:49:39 PM PST by HKMk23 (Tengo una remera del Che y no se por que.)

Great news, so how do you propose to gather data on the effects of future taxation on the movie industry after Brokeback Mountain?

Some things I just don't want to know. ;-)

5,309 posted on 02/21/2006 6:57:43 PM PST by tuliptree76

"... further suppose that all existing successive "otherwheres" are also likewise incoporated."

Aw, Geez!

Can I talk to the other guy again?

Just kidding. Your point is valid. If not all energy is accounted for, it could be intruding from, or escaping into, an otherwhere.

That doesn't make a difference. The Universe is like an ocean, (only more so!), if a little rain evaporates from the Atlantic, and falls into the Pacific, what difference does it make?

In anything as large as a Universe, there will be leakage, both in and out. That doesn't mean there is as much as one additional Universe, but there could be a Universe of Universes.

That still doesn't change it. In your question "Is E_All a constant or not?" the answer is "not." Mostly it increases. In some circumstances it could decrease.

5,310 posted on 02/21/2006 7:06:02 PM PST by NicknamedBob (Islamists say we shouldn't make a mockery of religion -- funny, that's the problem I have with them!)

To: NicknamedBob

I guess that where I'm really going is to try to capture a mental construct of some "Super E" comprised of the instantaneous sum of all enegry both everywhere and nowhere (and in all 'wheres' in between).

*SIGH*

Yes, it is likely too big a picture to even begin to entertain, given all that is unresolved with the models we have. While we're certainly light-years from traditional notions of 4D spacetime, still, just resolving structural questions about the stuff of our current theories taxes the limits of our finest minds. How do you talk about "the structure" of things that have no mentally imaginable structure; things that can be grasped only as we can render them in some mathematical form? We're really good with the concrete because visualizations of concrete things are easily manipulated in the mind's eye. But how does one visualize the fiber bundle of gague theory? What shape is it? It can't be done. It's all on paper in a cryptic language of runes beyond the grasp of all but the most potent of mathematicians. After all, what percentage of the populace will ever understand terminology like "tetrad anholonomic coordinates"; or even want to?

We've done our best for centuries and every single advance yields dozens of even more complex questions. I sometimes wonder how much farther we can go before the limits of human intelligence become the greatest barrier to further discovery.

5,311 posted on 02/21/2006 7:34:00 PM PST by HKMk23 (Tengo una remera del Che y no se por que.)

"...before the limits of human intelligence become the greatest barrier to further discovery."

Well, of course you know what the answer to that conundrum is, don't you?

Ray Kurzweil believes we are at a "tipping point," where we will integrate ourselves with machine culture. Even if you had a library of superfast computers available to you to remember and calculate things, though, you wouldn't necessarily be any smarter, or better able to grasp esoteric mathematical intrigues.

What then is the answer to that?

We have to get smarter. Lots smarter. -- The problem with that is that no one can properly define what smarter is, or what steps we should take to get there.

It may be just as well that we will have to proceed more slowly. I shudder to think what damage we would do if we should follow the formulas of some of our current thinkers as to the proper course toward wisdom.

By the way, the concept you are trying to achieve, "... to try to capture a mental construct of some "Super E" comprised of the instantaneous sum of all enegry both everywhere and nowhere ..." is essentially a scalar value, and hence, meaningless. Space has expanded since the Big Bang, and it continues to expand.

I happen to believe that a part of that expansion is the occasional, perhaps random, production of matter. That would seem to indicate that the expansion will continue.

Be that as it may, the E value simply goes on up, continuously.

By the additional way, your four-D space-time construct is missing a few dimensions. It really isn't as big or limitless as you may think. You just need to be able to perceive it in additional dimensions.

5,312 posted on 02/21/2006 7:55:06 PM PST by NicknamedBob (Islamists say we shouldn't make a mockery of religion -- funny, that's the problem I have with them!)

Thanks. I thought of that, but hadn't heard that term used before, leaving me with, "I have a '?' of Che, and I don't know why."

5,313 posted on 02/22/2006 4:16:15 AM PST by Tax-chick (My remark was stupid, and I'm a slave of the patriarchy. So?)

To: TheBrotherhood

Vlad's an excellent eater, but inclined to indigestion. I think it's because of his sinus congestion. It's a difficult thing being a baby - their noses just aren't big enough!

5,314 posted on 02/22/2006 4:18:25 AM PST by Tax-chick (My remark was stupid, and I'm a slave of the patriarchy. So?)

To: stephenjohnbanker

ROTF!

How much personal experience do you have with the young of the species? Your time as a former-member of that club does not count!

;)

5,315 posted on 02/22/2006 4:54:12 AM PST by Alice au Wonderland (I didn't say it was your fault, I said I was going to blame you.)

To: Do not dub me shapka broham; King Prout

No, but 'twas the King's idea, and it works fairly well. 'Tis a pity we didn't adopt it from the first.

In this house, if I remember someone's given name, it's b/c I'm angry with them. If I remember someone's entire name, it would be wise for them to flee to a country with which we do not enjoy mutual extradition powers.

At all other times, everyone's name is "honey", so I don't have to strain my brain too often!

5,316 posted on 02/22/2006 5:01:30 AM PST by Alice au Wonderland (I didn't say it was your fault, I said I was going to blame you.)

Congratulations! Now, the real work begins, I presume?

5,317 posted on 02/22/2006 5:02:42 AM PST by Alice au Wonderland (I didn't say it was your fault, I said I was going to blame you.)

To: Tax-chick; Dead Corpse; Do not dub me shapka broham; King Prout; NicknamedBob; stephenjohnbanker; ..

Good morning!

I got to see a beautiful "quarter" moon through the tree tops this morning, before the sun peeked over the horizon.

My "to do" list is comparatively light today, so I'm contemplating taking a nap this afternoon, before the whirlwind of ballet and swimming.

How are all of you and what are you up to?

5,318 posted on 02/22/2006 5:08:22 AM PST by Alice au Wonderland (I didn't say it was your fault, I said I was going to blame you.)

To: Alice au Wonderland

We're tired. We were thinking of going to the library - I think our Union County books are overdue - but it's in the 40's and raining. I'm going to wait to see if things improve.

No activities today; it's the break between gymnastics sessions. I think I'll have Bill vacuum the upstairs, since he can't go running in the cold rain.

5,319 posted on 02/22/2006 5:53:52 AM PST by Tax-chick (My remark was stupid, and I'm a slave of the patriarchy. So?)

Sounds like a cold, wet, miserable day.

Going to the library sounds like a good idea. It'll get everyone out for a bit. Maybe you can pick up a good movie and have a movie day, with popcorn, this afternoon. It'd give all of you something to look forward to.

I've called KODT, who is kindly calling in a prescription for me. Seems like I've developed a sinus infection. Oh goody!

Not what I need right now.

Other than that, the day is still looking pretty good.

I hope that your day improves.

5,320 posted on 02/22/2006 5:58:20 AM PST by Alice au Wonderland (I didn't say it was your fault, I said I was going to blame you.)

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