Posted on 02/19/2005 7:36:30 AM PST by Woodworker
Panel says professor of human origins made up data, plagiarized works
A flamboyant anthropology professor, whose work had been cited as evidence Neanderthal man once lived in Northern Europe, has resigned after a German university panel ruled he fabricated data and plagiarized the works of his colleagues. Reiner Protsch von Zieten, a Frankfurt university panel ruled, lied about the age of human skulls, dating them tens of thousands of years old, even though they were much younger, reports Deutsche Welle. "The commission finds that Prof. Protsch has forged and manipulated scientific facts over the past 30 years," the university said of the widely recognized expert in carbon data in a prepared statement.
Protsch's work first came under suspicion last year during a routine investigation of German prehistoric remains by two other anthropologists. "We had decided to subject many of these finds to modern techniques to check their authenticity so we sent them to Oxford [University] for testing," one of the researchers told The Sunday Telegraph. "It was a routine examination and in no way an attempt to discredit Prof. von Zieten." In their report, they called Protsch's 30 years of work a "dating disaster."
Among their findings was an age of only 3,300 years for the female "Bischof-Speyer" skeleton, found with unusually good teeth in Northern Germany, that Protsch dated to 21,300 years. Another dating error was identified for a skull found near Paderborn, Germany, that Protsch dated at 27,400 years old. It was believed to be the oldest human remain found in the region until the Oxford investigations indicated it belonged to an elderly man who died in 1750. The Herne anthropological museum, which owned the Paderborn skull, did its own tests following the unsettling results. "We had the skull cut open and it still smelt," said the museum's director. "We are naturally very disappointed."
Protsch, known for his love of Cuban cigars and Porsches, did not comment on the commission's findings, but in January he told the Frankfurter Neue Presse, "This was a court of inquisition. They don't have a single piece of hard evidence against me." The fallout from Protsch's false dating of northern European bone finds is only beginning.
Chris Stringer, a Stone Age specialist and head of human origins at London's Natural History Museum, said: "What was considered a major piece of evidence showing that the Neanderthals once lived in northern Europe has fallen by the wayside. We are having to rewrite prehistory." "Anthropology now has to revise its picture of modern man between 40,000 and 10,000 B.C.," added Thomas Terberger, an archaeologist at the University of Greifswald. Frankfurt University's president, Rudolf Steinberg, apologized for the university's failure to curb Protsch's misconduct for decades. "A lot of people looked the other way," he said.
Give it up -- you made a challenge, he met it. Now you're just being childish because you can't gracefully accept that, and you want to move the goalposts after the fact. It's a cheap tactic, and you're not fooling anyone.
I'm sure he will too.
That was your claim, wasn't it? Hmmm. You posted 7 examples. Let's see how many actually support your claim:
So you really think that is the same as "all evolutionists are atheists" do you? Nope. This one fails
"And, speaking of materialists, that is the atheist connection, since a fundamental, though illogical, first principle of evolution is naturalism. Naturalism denies the existence of anything besides matter and its motion. Naturalism (also known as materialism) is necessarily atheistic and is the connecting point between evolution and unbelief. (Do note who made that statement)"
That materialists are atheists is true. Are all evolutionists materialists? Nope. This one also fails.
"I generally distrust the judgment of evolutionists because they're atheists."
This one appears to be a fabrication (would an evolutionist fabricate evidence? Say it ain't so!). The error is:
The requested document does not exist on this server. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Okay
So far that's two strikes and one fabrication. Four more to go.
"Too bad the premise of an evolutionist is that God doesn't exist and if He does He is too stupid to create humans and all we see."
It looks like you actually hit on one here. Too bad you had to go all the way back to July. That gives a total of one poster with two posts in the last 7 months. I don't think we've hit "often" yet.
"Evolution theory exists because people don't want to believe they were made by a superior being to whom they are also responsible for their lives."
Nope. This doesn't say all evolutionists are atheists. The statement only gives a reason for the theory.
"According to the evolutionist there will be no final exam."
This is a true statement. It is only false if "the" is replaced with "all." You can have that one, though, because the wording is too imprecise. That's two posters and 3 times in the last 7 months. Still not "often."
"The clincher here is this, if I'm correct in my belief in the book of Genesis, I'll be spending eternity in a field of clover with a cold drink right there whenever I reach for it. Meanwhile, you and your buddies will be stoking a furnace while Asmodeus, Judas Iscariot and Adolf Hitler take turns jabbing you in the glutei with a trident should you stop shoveling for a moment to wipe your brow."
Shame, Dimensio. The reply was to "you and your buddies,", not all evolutionists. And it was about your (plural)eternal destiny, a place not exclusive to atheists. This one fails too.
That's great. The truth according to Ichneumon.
All I ask is that you leave your personal vendettas against anyone who questions evolution at the door when you come in and stick to what you're best at: explaining science to people in layman's terms. (which we all appreciate). I must say, though, that it's sad that someone with so much knowledge has to sprinkle bits of vitriol into his/her writings. It's *so* Talkorg-like. Furthermore, that vitriol drives Creationists (who make up the majority of our Party, I might add) and others away from this forum. It is not the Creationists, ID'ers, agnostics, etc. that are hurting conservatism.
So if If you guys will stop "spending so much time" attacking science and telling lies about it, I could spend less time correcting you and more time doing other things.
Many of us who question evolution *love* science and the wonders of this world. Is it wrong to question evolutionist dogma?
I'm sure he will too.
Too bad guys, your "sure" missed. Dataman put up a great effort, worthy of the finest logic-chopper, but he didn't find rationalisations to dismiss all of them.
And what evolutionist dogma is that then?
It is wrong to question scientific beliefs when the basis of the questioning is so often (AFAICS usually) utterly ignorant of the scientific issues, and based slmost entirely on a desire to promote fundamentalist Christianity at the expense of dimly understood science.
In order to be motivated to "run" from anyone (even though that's hardly my style), I would first have to have ever heard of him before, or consider his works relevant to anything of note. But having perused your link, I still don't think he's worthy of even much passing attention, much less "running from", so it appears that your assessment is mistaken, as usual.
As for being like those from whom we descended, you remind me of a relevant quote:
"For my own part I would as soon be descended from that heroic little monkey, who braved his dreaded enemy in order to save the life of his keeper; or from that old baboon, who, descending from the mountains, carried away in triumph his young comrade from a crowd of astonished dogs -- as from a savage who delights to torture his enemies, offers up bloody sacrifices, practices infanticide without remorse, treats his wives like slaves, knows no decency, and is haunted by the grossest superstitions."Apes in general are more inspiring relatives than many so-called humans. So I wouldn't get too smug if I were you.-- Charles Darwin, The Descent of Man, 2nd ed., London: John Murray, 1901, p. 946.
To be intellectually honest, converting a document to a new language can come with potential problems. However, being that we believe that God has overseen the inspiration as well as preservation of the Word, we are confident that His message is fully recognizable.
The discovery of the Dead Sea scrolls, which have been determined to have been from the time of Jesus Christ, give us evidence of how carefully the copyists transcribed the text over the last 2000 years.
The creation of the world and the creation of man are connected repeatedly throughout scripture:
Isa 45:12 I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, [even] my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.
Zec 12:1 The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.
Isa 42:5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:
Isa 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I [am] the LORD; and [there is] none else.
Isa 40:21-22
Have ye not known? have ye not heard? hath it not been told you from the beginning? have ye not understood from the foundations of the earth?
Isa 64:4 For since the beginning of the world [men] have not heard, nor perceived by the ear, neither hath the eye seen, O God, beside thee, [what] he hath prepared for him that waiteth for him.
Again, more passages speaking about Adam being created:
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Gen 5:1 This [is] the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
Mat 19:4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made [them] at the beginning made them male and female,
Deu 4:32 For ask now of the days that are past, which were before thee, since the day that God created man upon the earth,
And the myth called Adam lived a specific number of years, then the myth died.
Gen 5:5 And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.
He met it? Is that you Reiner?
Reiner Protsch von Zieten, a Frankfurt university panel ruled, lied about the age of human skulls, dating them tens of thousands of years old, even though they were much younger, reports Deutsche Welle.
Never mind, I know the answer -- and you're incapable of giving the straight answer.
But that just comes back to saying that people who don't agree with you that the Bible can be interpreted totally literally as if it were a science text aren't Christians.
Well, I've got news for you, a sizable majority of people who call themselves Christians worldwide don't agree with you...You appear to worship the simplest possible literal interpretation of the words of the Bible more than you worship God (except when some clever guy who you've set up as a commentator gives you a free pass on some passage or other). That is my impression as someone from outside your religion, but I believe that many others who nominally share your religion would agree with me on that.
It continues to be as it has been since 1859. The less evidence one has, the more one has to fabricate it, mischaracterize his opponents, and the louder one has to yell. Methinks thou dost protest too much.
And just *how* long did you date Jane Goodall ? (grin)
Full Disclosure: "He was the first ape who ever touched me" is an-out-of context quote of hers which can provide hours of amusement, if you're ever in the mood. :-)
Do you know what is meant by equivocation?
Sheesh, it took them 30 years to figure out that this guy was making things up as he went along ? I wonder how qualified they are ?
Or they knew it and just looked the other way.
How many would it take? Ten? One hundred? One thousand? Name a number.
40:
I am struck by the fact that Karl Marx, this unpleasant man sitting alone in the British museum writing these abstruse essays, really did change the world. Look at Darwin. My God, what a powerful theory. Incidentally, I give that one about 40 more years, and it will go down in flames.
TAS: Why 40 years?
Tom Wolfe: Look at the Big Bang. That's a fairly recent theory, and it is already burning out. There are too many scientists who are saying this is rubbish. Just think about the theory of the Big Bang or this ridiculous theory about where the first cell came from. Now they say it probably came from outer space when an asteroid hit the earth and a few of these things bounced out. It is because of all this silly stuff that Darwinism is going to go down in flames.
What!!??
This thread is NOTHING about those blind dates that I expected to read about!
A person who believes that Jesus Christ died on the cross for their sins, and has Him as the Lord of their life, is a Christian.
Personally, I wish to know as much about my King as I can. Most of that knowing comes from the Scripture. Much of my knowing Him comes from trying to follow His teachings, thereby becoming more associated with Him. The Holy Spirit participates in guiding each Christian as an individual, by prompting the spirit of a person to execute God's will for their life. Prayer and Meditation also deepen the fellowship we have with God. His will in our lives is gleaned from the pages of scripture, coupled with spending time in His prescence through prayer.
Knowing more about Christ does not make one a Christian. I do not always take a literal view of the scripture, because a straightforward reading will reveal the context and style intended. I can be wrong, and try my best to be open to correction. God is truth, therefore that is what I want.
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