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English And Welsh Are Races Apart
BBC ^ | 6-30-2002

Posted on 07/04/2002 5:27:12 PM PDT by blam

Sunday, 30 June, 2002, 15:31 GMT 16:31 UK

English and Welsh are races apart

Gene scientists claim to have found proof that the Welsh are the "true" Britons.

The research supports the idea that Celtic Britain underwent a form of ethnic cleansing by Anglo-Saxons invaders following the Roman withdrawal in the fifth century.

Genetic tests show clear differences between the Welsh and English

It suggests that between 50% and 100% of the indigenous population of what was to become England was wiped out, with Offa's Dyke acting as a "genetic barrier" protecting those on the Welsh side.

And the upheaval can be traced to this day through genetic differences between the English and the Welsh.

Academics at University College in London comparing a sample of men from the UK with those from an area of the Netherlands where the Anglo-Saxons are thought to have originated found the English subjects had genes that were almost identical.

But there were clear differences between the genetic make-up of Welsh people studied.

The research team studied the Y-chromosome, which is passed almost unchanged from father to son, and looked for certain genetic markers.

Ethnic links: Many races share common bonds

They chose seven market towns mentioned in the Domesday Book of 1086 and studied 313 male volunteers whose paternal grandfather had also lived in the area.

They then compared this with samples from Norway and with Friesland, now a northern province of the Netherlands.

The English and Frisians studied had almost identical genetic make-up but the English and Welsh were very different.

The researchers concluded the most likely explanation for this was a large-scale Anglo-Saxon invasion, which devastated the Celtic population of England, but did not reach Wales.

Dr Mark Thomas, of the Centre for Genetic Anthropology at UCL, said their findings suggested that a migration occurred within the last 2,500 years.

Genetic links

It reinforced the idea that the Welsh were the true indigenous Britons.

In April last year, research for a BBC programme on the Vikings revealed strong genetic links between the Welsh and Irish Celts and the Basques of northern Spain and south France.

It suggested a possible link between the Celts and Basques, dating back tens of thousands of years.

The UCL research into the more recent Anglo-Saxon period suggested a migration on a huge scale.

"It appears England is made up of an ethnic cleansing event from people coming across from the continent after the Romans left," he said.

Celtic Britons

Archaeologists after the Second World War rejected the traditionally held view that an Anglo-Saxon invasion pushed the indigenous Celtic Britons to the fringes of Britain.

Instead, they said the arrival of Anglo-Saxon culture could have come from trade or a small ruling elite.

But the latest research by the UCL team, "using genetics as a history book", appears to support the original view of a large-scale invasion of England.

It suggests that the Welsh border was more of a genetic barrier to the Anglo-Saxon Y chromosome gene flow than the North Sea.

Dr Thomas added: "Our findings completely overturn the modern view of the origins of the English."


TOPICS: News/Current Events; United Kingdom
KEYWORDS: ancientautopsies; ancientnavigation; apart; archaeology; basques; bookofinvasions; caledonia; celts; cymraeg; cymru; cymry; domesdaybook; england; english; evolution; fartyshadesofgreen; genealogy; genetics; ggg; godsgravesglyphs; greatormecoppermine; helixmakemineadouble; history; iberia; ireland; kingarthur; normanconquest; pictish; picts; race; races; sociobiology; spain; uk; unitedkingdom; wales; welsh
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To: Rightwing Conspiratr1
The researchers concluded the most likely explanation for this was a large-scale Anglo-Saxon invasion...

Probably lead by the legendary King Ike Eisenhower...
61 posted on 07/04/2002 7:10:52 PM PDT by dr_who
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To: muawiyah; Luis Gonzalez
The most famous Galician around here is Luis Gonzalez. Hey, Luis, maybe you and Fidel are related. :)
62 posted on 07/04/2002 7:12:00 PM PDT by Torie
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To: blam
In the book The Story of English they make the point that the Welsh and the people of Normandy can make themselves understood with either of them speaking the others' language. How does this figure in?
63 posted on 07/04/2002 7:12:12 PM PDT by CaptRon
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To: McGavin999
Any Scot worth his salt respects the extraordinary metalworking skills of the Picts. The BEST armorers were of Pictish blood.

Ah, rubbish. They just made that up to sell more role playing game accessories.
64 posted on 07/04/2002 7:13:07 PM PDT by dr_who
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To: muawiyah
"Good old whathisname, Neils Vanderpost, wrote the still definitive story on the San.

Yup. Read 2-3 of his books on the San. Do you have any links to the San skeletons around the Bay Of Biscay?

65 posted on 07/04/2002 7:13:21 PM PDT by blam
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To: Illbay
You write the accent well.
66 posted on 07/04/2002 7:13:57 PM PDT by DonnerT
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To: Rightwing Conspiratr1
The Norse invaders of what became Normandy were not all that numerous. The basic Celtic population remained in place. We can be sure of that because they held on to their Gallo language! When a population is displaced, the newcomers do not adopt the old language.

When it came time to invade what had become England, William took with him an army composed mostly of men from the Norman and Bretagne coasts, and down to Anjou. That is, his army was made up of folks who were primarily descendants of the old Briton refugees who came to Brezh in the 6th century. His very first "Norman" town was called Vauxhal, which is simply the way a French speaker (William) would spell the Gallo name of the county seat of Normandy at the time, which is, itself, a short form for "Carvajal".

This is undoubtedly the source of the Briton input among the Danish and Dutch populations that nowadays dominate so much of the life of the British Isles.

No doubt the Anglo-Saxon heathens put as many Britons to the sword and spit as they could. We should all be happy William put a stop to that nonsense.

67 posted on 07/04/2002 7:16:33 PM PDT by muawiyah
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To: CaptRon
Actually, didn't they discover the grave sites of some caucasians in China not long ago? I seem to remember some Discovery Channel documentary that mentioned some of them had plaid clothing and one or two of the women were buried with pointed hats.
68 posted on 07/04/2002 7:17:25 PM PDT by dr_who
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To: McGavin999
"I am not a mere Celt, I am a Pict!

You beat me to it, I was about to ask when they were going to test the highland Scot."

Soon as they can scrape off the Picts' blue paint.
69 posted on 07/04/2002 7:17:45 PM PDT by APBaer
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To: blam
So the Welsh are Rare Brits -- Welsh Rarebrits ??
70 posted on 07/04/2002 7:17:46 PM PDT by Woodkirk
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To: CaptRon
"In the book The Story of English they make the point that the Welsh and the people of Normandy can make themselves understood with either of them speaking the others' language. How does this figure in?"

Sorry, can't answer your question. However, I saw an article (DNA study) that stated the Welsh and the Basque are closely related...also the Irish too.

71 posted on 07/04/2002 7:18:17 PM PDT by blam
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To: muawiyah
E&J Gallo ought to be a language we all understand. But a scotch on rocks is good too.
72 posted on 07/04/2002 7:19:03 PM PDT by dr_who
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To: dr_who
LOL
73 posted on 07/04/2002 7:19:22 PM PDT by McGavin999
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To: dr_who; CaptRon
"Actually, didn't they discover the grave sites of some caucasians in China not long ago? I seem to remember some Discovery Channel documentary that mentioned some of them had plaid clothing and one or two of the women were buried with pointed hats."

Click on the link in post #19.

Good books associated with these people are: The mummies of Urumchi, Elizabeth Barber and The Tarim Mummies, Victor Mair.

74 posted on 07/04/2002 7:22:36 PM PDT by blam
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To: dr_who
The oldest of these plaid wearing Caucasions in China is coincident with the existence of the Gaelic kingdom at Troy.
75 posted on 07/04/2002 7:22:55 PM PDT by muawiyah
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To: CaptRon
The only way the Normans and the Welsh these days can readily communicate is through English. Back in the 500-700 period they would have both spoken the same set of Gaelic dialects. Somewhere about 900+ the folks in Normandy, Eastern Brittany and along the Loire, began speaking several Gallo dialects.

It looks like French, but it's not!

With the Welsh speaking two different Gaelic languages (one cognate to Irish and the other cognate to Breton), and the Normans speaking Gallo and French, they would be mutually unintelligible.

Bretons and Welshmen, however, do, at least in part, speak the same language!

76 posted on 07/04/2002 7:28:10 PM PDT by muawiyah
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To: CaptRon
Tuesday, 3 April, 2001, 13:11 GMT 14:11 UK

Genes link Celts to Basques

The Welsh and Irish Celts have been found to be the genetic blood-brothers of Basques, scientists have revealed. The gene patterns of the three races passed down through the male line are all "strikingly similar", researchers concluded.

Basques can trace their roots back to the Stone Age and are one of Europe's most distinct people, fiercely proud of their ancestry and traditions.

The research adds to previous studies which have suggested a possible link between the Celts and Basques, dating back tens of thousands of years.

"The project started with our trying to assess whether the Vikings made an important genetic contribution to the population of Orkney," Professor David Goldstein of University College London (UCL) told BBC News.

'Statistically indistinguishable'

He and his colleagues looked at Y-chromosomes, passed from father to son, of Celtic and Norwegian populations. They found them to be quite different.

"But we also noticed that there's something quite striking about the Celtic populations, and that is that there's not a lot of genetic variation on the Y-chromosome," he said.

To try to work out where the Celtic population originally came from, the team from UCL, the University of Oxford and the University of California at Davis also looked at Basques.

"On the Y-chromosome the Celtic populations turn out to be statistically indistinguishable from the Basques," Professor Goldstein said.

Pre-farming Europe

The comparison was made because Basques are thought by most experts to be very similar to the people who lived in Europe before the advent of farming.

Genetic tests have identified key gene groups

"We conclude that both of these populations are reflecting pre-farming Europe," he said.

Professor Goldstein's team looked at the genetic profiles of 88 individuals from Anglesey, North Wales, 146 from Ireland with Irish Gaelic surnames, and 50 Basques.

"We know of no other study that provides direct evidence of a close relationship in the paternal heritage of the Basque- and the Celtic-speaking populations of Britain," the team write in the journal Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.

Viking TV

But it is still unclear whether the link is specific to the Celts and the Basques, or whether they are both simply the closest surviving relatives of the early population of Europe.

What is clear is that the Neolithic Celts took women from outside their community. When the scientists looked at female genetic patterns as well, they found evidence of genetic material from northern Europe.

This influence helped even out some of the genetic differences between the Celts and their Northern European neighbours.

The work was carried out in connection with a BBC television programme on the Vikings.

77 posted on 07/04/2002 7:30:23 PM PDT by blam
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To: muawiyah
Actually, I think that was the point of the book. The Gaelic connection. Also, if I remember correctly, they did say it was older Welshmen. It was several years ago that I read it. Good book. I keep meaning to re-read it.
78 posted on 07/04/2002 7:31:21 PM PDT by CaptRon
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To: muawiyah
Oh come on!
79 posted on 07/04/2002 7:35:20 PM PDT by dr_who
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To: Illbay
You've clearly never walked into a bakery in a tiny Welsh town, watch as everyone in the room goes silent waiting for you to say your first word... will you speak Welsh or will it be English?

The Welsh are a lovely group of people with very long memories.

80 posted on 07/04/2002 7:36:31 PM PDT by Utopia
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