Posted on 09/11/2001 5:56:49 AM PDT by hellinahandcart
Just in. I am looking at a picture of the WTC with smoke pouring out of the western tower. Looks like a huge amount of damage. Debris raining down on people in the street.
I can answer pings to it now, which wasn't always the case, so yes, I do consider that a fortunate bit of progress. Sorry if you took that comment to mean anything else.
Why?
Because with this ridiculous Newsweek story where Americans are taking the blame for insane radical islamists killing each other, it's important to remember that this so-called "religion" is what led to these WTC deaths and more American deaths before then and since then.
However, our country is civilized and we responded like patriots. We did not riot in the streets and kill our own. We responded calmly with the necessary military action and we will continue to do so. We need a little bit more intolerance to Islam, just as we needed more intolerance to Nazism in the 1930's. A "religion" that has part of its holy text ordering our deaths is not a religion.
Why'd you click on the thread?
Because it came up in my "lastest posts" list. My first thought was "how in the f*#&$ did it happen AGAIN?". Then I realized it was a ping from a 4 year old post and thought it a little odd.
I personally haven't changed as much as you have. There were over 35,000 murders in the U.S. annually before 9/11, and by the unofficial estimates I have heard, about 20% of those are by foreigners ... which makes, what ... 7,000 murders annually by foreign invaders. To put this into perspective, we have had the equivalent of eight 9/11's since 9/11. Yet, nobody has batted an eye or done much of anything about it. Heck, the guy you just voted in wants amnesty for those who broke our immigration laws, and the traffic has picked up.
Okay, granted our two annual 9/11's are not nearly as dramatic as a plane into a building, not nearly as concentrated, not as easy to rally around, not easy to memorialize - but it's still happening. Every day. About 20 just today. And it's no less tragic.
My brother was in the Pentagon when the plane hit. He was partially deaf for several days afterward. Pretty scary. Yet, nary a month later he was held up at gunpoint in Mt. Pleasant (a hispanic neighborhood in DC).
I asked him which scared him more. He said the latter.
So while you may feel safe while dodging the towel heads every chance you get ... dare I say that although they are much more dramatic and boogie-man-like scary, i'll take my chances on a plane full of turbans over a walk through MacArthur park at 1am and day of the week.
IMHO, 9/11 just gave us a diversion, and took our mind off of the actual threats Americans face daily.
It reminds me of the black folks who are always on TV saying that they are afraid of the KKK, and the media trying to find "white sepremacists" anywhere they can find them. Never mind that 88% of blacks are killed by other blacks, and less than one tenth of one percent of blacks mudered are the result of "hate crimes". Hunting down the pointy-hat wearing white guys in Alabama just makes folks feel better, you know, progress is being made.
And so it is with the "rag heads" or whatever they are being called these days. As scary and ominous as they have no becaome, they make up probably the smallest percentage of crime committed in this country. Most of them work at 7-11 or drive cabs, and wouldn't know a jihad from a shish-kabob.
It's like Tim McVeigh and friends. You get some nutjobs here and there that eventually manage to carry out something hideously improbable, and the media has everyone looking over their shoulder every day for some loner-looking white guy with short hair and calling the cops they see two arabs exchanging business cards (it must be some kind of secret terrorist code) - but unlike most people, I have come to realize that 99% of terrorism occurs on a daily basis with little to no fanfare.
Come to LA sometime and i'll show you the nice graffiti on my house where the 18th street gang has sprawled some threats designed to terrorize the community.
Can some dude in a cave with a walkie talky detonate something near me at some point? Well sure. And lightening can strike me, or someone involved in one of the five daily car chases can come barreling at me, or a member of the Grap Street gang can cross our turf and spark another 60 round gunbattle. What am I gonna do? I guess I could lock myself in a vault, but that would kind of suck.
So, to be 100% honest, I haven't really changed a whole heck of alot since 9/11. I feel horribly for the 35,000 people who are gunned down each year, and in 2001 I felt horribly for the 39,000 that were victims. And this year I will feel horribly for the 35,000, and the next year, and the next year ...
If you think terrorism only comes gift-wrapped in a turban, or if you even think more than 10% of it is ... then you my friend, have been had.
Well, I covered the Crown Heights riots. Then the Columbia Heights riots. And I was fortunate to escape Wilshire & Vermont in 1992 when the bricks started flying. And noticing that we have the highest murder rate among first-world nations (by far), makes me beg to differ slightly. And blowing up a daycare center on Oklahoma doesn't give me the warm and fuzzies either.
Face it. We have more than a couple violent, uncivilized folks right here on the homeland. If every nation highlighted this population as representative of our entire country, imagine how terribly bad we would look.
Every nation has it's nasty freakin a**holes.
A loss my friend Catspaw no longer posts here
?
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1375812/posts?page=74#74
04/01/2005 7:42:27 PM CST
And yes it is worth rereading.
ping
Same here, rabidralph. It just gives me chills. As another FReeper here said: This thread is an extraordinary piece of history. Just reading these posts (a few of them mine) brings it all back.
I'll never forget 9/11/01...
haven't we all.....
for me, I can say that I just don't like the rest of the world as much, even Canada, who I find I am very resentful......
I like America!
some people have shown real B*lls like Tony Blair, Gulianni, Ed Koch, our good men and women in the services........how about the Australians?.....they came along when we needed them....
right now, I want us out of Iraq....we have taken our bit of flesh and now its up to them to come into the 21st century.......
God bless America, and may we work to actually deserve that blessing.....
however, our national policy is not aimed at killing certain people because of their religion or their race or their country of origin....all things that the mad Islamists can claim...
bttt
I understand. But we kill people over $150 pairs of shoes. And for wearing the wrong colored hats. And lots of other silly stuff that I probably don't need to mention.
And it is the national policy of our country to punish with daily anal rape any person who does not submit "information returns" to the goverment each year telling them how much money passed through their hands.
The point is that every country is, for the most part, f***ked up in some way shape or form. I'm not sure how many muslims really want to kill every U.S. citizen. Is it the whole country, certain groups, a government policy ....
We have groups here that hate black people, we have groups that don't like any number of ethnic groups. Our government doesn't particularly like North Koreans, yet how many of us really hate the North Korean people and want to see them all shot? Maybe 5% or less. But the perception of the N. Korean people over there is probably that everyone in the US wants them dead.
I understand that we have to devote some time to extremists, but we can't obsess over them to the point that our daily lives become overly-effected.
If you were to ask me, i'd say the terrorists won the 9/11 battle. What with all the new policies and government powers basically stretching the Bill of Rights to the limit, having everyone in the county mention "9/11" every single day and looking over their shoulder constantly.
I bet the OBL team probably figures it wasn't bad for a day's work. For them it was a success, if only because we made it one.
If you were to ask me, i'd say the terrorists won the 9/11 battle.
I totally disagree. Their intentions were to bring us to a screeching halt. They attacked our financial and business center for a reason. Instead we continued to live our lives. The terrorists always assume honor is an indication of weakness, and they did not expect we would pull together as a nation like we did. If Al Gore had been president, they would have been right and we probably would have lost the battle.
By the way, my comment about us not rioting was referring only to the aftermath of 9/11. I was certainly not claiming that Americans are all individually saints or that Americans never riot. The aftermath of 9/11 could have been much more chaotic than it was. My point was to directly compare the deadly riot over the Koran-flushing rumor to our lack of rioting after 3,000 civilians were slaughtered.
That said, I disagree with your general moral equivalency tone, and I have no problem stating that America is the greatest country on the Earth, and in general we respond with more civility than the Muslim world does.
Well, the markets were closed for several days and saw the largest single-day dip after opening in the history of the market.
I doubt they thought we would never again open the stock market. I don't think they thought they were going to destroy a large country with 4 airplanes. I think they wanted to stop things for awhile, scare the s**t out of people for years to come, and put some inconveniences on the lives of Americans for years to come.
For the most part, that has happened.
I think a better response would have been to seal up the borders and allow legal citizens to continue their lives as usual, without passing any more domestic laws. THAT would have been a defeat.
Instead we've opened the borders wider, reduced civil protections of citizens, and stepped up surveillance and suspicion of the citizenry while scaring people into accepting it because it "makes us safer".
When I have to pass through a metal detector to take my kid to see "Sesame Street Live", and explain wy I have a bottle opener on my keychain (yeah, i'm going to rob Big Bird with it) ... I would say that the cavedwellers consider it a success.
And that's really too bad. A mere shutting off of the borders and deporation of those who are here illegally would all but eliminate the foreign threat. Instead we're groping 60 year old grandmothers wearing underwire bra's as the fly from Cincinnati to Cleveland to see their grand kids.
Really, who do you think is laughing?
As to our moral superiority, I don't know where we rank. I'm glad we aren't Rwanda, but the folks in England and Iceland don't seem to be incredibly oppressive either. I like to think we are pretty on-blanace with the rest of the first-world countries.
Then again, if I haven't lived there, it's hard to say.
Stu Cohen, I disagree with most of your post. The problem is, we do not pay attention and remember 9/11 often enough.
There is a reason 9/11 is much more important (not only to the US, but to the world) than a tsunami ravaging Southeast Asia, even though 100 times more people were killed there.
9/11 was a deliberate rip in the fabric of society. We better pay attention to it and talk about it every day.
And not all of us look over our shoulder every day, or feel that we have to succumb to daily anal rape for tax purposes. Most people don't feel that way. Even if I do feel that my taxes are being levied at a confiscatory rate, I still believe we can influence that through the electoral process, although the current state of government is making me re-evaluate that.
I wasn't talking about natural disasters, but intentional murders, of which, statistically, there were 20 more today. Probably one happened while you were typing.
9/11 was a deliberate rip in the fabric of society. We better pay attention to it and talk about it every day.
Then what are he 35,000 yearly murders (7,000 by foreigners)? Aren't those societal rips? Should we talk about them less?
And not all of us look over our shoulder every day, or feel that we have to succumb to daily anal rape for tax purposes. Most people don't feel that way.
Yes, and I guess the women in Islamic countries who don't want to get stoned to death can simply make sure they don't show their ankle in accordance with the law. Probably most of them are fine with it. Not sure I agree with the civility of it, though.
Even if I do feel that my taxes are being levied at a confiscatory rate, I still believe we can influence that through the electoral process, although the current state of government is making me re-evaluate that.
Indeed. If you wanted the borders closed, who would you have voted for in 2004? If you wanted the IRS abolished, who would you have voted for? If you wanted an end to the War on Drugs, who would you have voted for?
The only change you effect when voting is who gets to take the bribes by the true lawmakers (the lobbyists).
It's a bribeocracy. Voting is just a "feel good" endeavor designed to make us think we have control over something. If you want influence, you need to make enough money to grease some palms.
Come on. You don't need to resort to straw man arguments like the statements about Islamic women to make a point. You sound smart enough to forgo that.
The fact is, since Cain murdered Abel, human beings have killed and hurt each other. The fact that Cain is notorious is due to the fact that the population of human civilization was very low, being first means something.
The current human population is 6.5 billion people. The current population of the USA is 296 million people. So yeah, with those numbers, there was probably a Cain murdering an Abel while I typed. It is an ongoing problem with mankind, it has been with us since day one. And yeah, we should talk about it. I presume you have ideas, and aren't just going to gripe about it.
What happened on 9/11 was that 19 Cains killed 3000 Abels, and it wasn't a crime of passion. It was a cold, calculated premeditated rip in the fabric of society.
I really want to know: Do you see no difference between an isolated incident of one person killing another person for any reason, and one group deciding to perform that same act on a large scale against a group of innocents for ideological reasons?
With respect to voting, you seem to forget that some people disagree with you. There are people who may not think the IRS should be abolished. There are some who think the borders should be open. There are some who think the war on drugs is a good thing. I may happen to agree on all points with you, but you know what? Not everyone does, and certainly not on every issue. I happen to think we should be pumping more money into our military, and there are a lot of others who think we shouldn't even have a military. If they get their way on one subject or another, I am going to do what I can to get it changed, if it is important to me. I presume these issues you outlined are important to you. What have you done about them?
No disrespect intended, but people can make a difference. If you get off your ass and get involved, you can make a difference. You don't think so, and your cynicism on that subject is clear. If your last paragraph is all you have to offer, then you are part of the problem, not the solution. Please don't take this personally, but cynicism is not what made our country great.
bttt
Hi, thank you for your thoughtful responses. I do understand where you are coming from.
To answer this question ... no. I don't see any difference between 35,000 "isolated" incidents, or one 4,000 person incident. In fact, I would prefer the latter rather than he former. If you win the lottery you can take 20 yearly payments, or a lump sum. Either way, you still won the lottery, and the amount of money is the same (okay, more if you take the monthly payments but you get the point).
We shouldn't let the drama of a single incident overshadow the real threat, which unfortunately ... is us. And much of that "us" is not protecting our borders, which BTW would have prevented 9/11 altogether, along with hundreds of thousands of other innocent muders over the decades. When you leave the henhouse door open for the fox, who's fault is it when the chickens get eaten?
And yeah, we should talk about it. I presume you have ideas, and aren't just going to gripe about it.
Oh yes. Not only the enforced right, but possibly the requirement of every able-bodied American to train to use and own a firearm. And obsessively strict immigration laws.
The problem lies in the fact that the only candidates who would consider such things are considered "throw away votes", and so we get the status-quo year after year from the supposedly-patriotic masses. Unfortunately, I can't do it alone. I need some people who can think beyond a party line to join me, which there doesn't seem to be a surplus of.
With respect to voting, you seem to forget that some people disagree with you. There are people who may not think the IRS should be abolished. There are some who think the borders should be open. There are some who think the war on drugs is a good thing. I may happen to agree on all points with you, but you know what? Not everyone does, and certainly not on every issue.
Of course. But for those who DO sagree with me ... who sould they have voted for? What candidate represented those views? Those who don't agree with me were presented with two candidates. And not by coincidence the only candidates who were allowed in any televised debate.
I'm all for people choosing their concious, as long as they have a viable choice on the ballot and don't need to endlessly pull the lever for "the lessor of two evils". And honestly, doesn't that seem to be the case? How many GWB voters do you know of that support amnesty? Weren't the basically just more scared of Kerry?
What have you done about them?
Thrown my vote away.
No disrespect intended, but people can make a difference.
Sure, people who can be legislators can make tons of difference. No arguement here.
If you get off your ass and get involved, you can make a difference.
Not really. We are at a point now (especialy since 9/11) where any kind of independent thinking is seens as "a threat" and pretty much relagates anything outside of a narrow spectrum of thinking to the "wingut" category. No?
You don't think so, and your cynicism on that subject is clear. If your last paragraph is all you have to offer, then you are part of the problem, not the solution. Please don't take this personally, but cynicism is not what made our country great.
You may be suprised, but I agree. What made our country great were things like the Boston Tea Party and other events when people actually had balls.
Now we have a huge disarmed public, armed government, Monday Night Football and cold beer.
Outside of a few notable exceptions, what made our country great is gone. We are now the England we fled, and so it is ....
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