English And Welsh Are Races Apart

BBC ^ | 6-30-2002

[blam]

Sunday, 30 June, 2002, 15:31 GMT 16:31 UK

English and Welsh are races apart

Gene scientists claim to have found proof that the Welsh are the "true" Britons.

The research supports the idea that Celtic Britain underwent a form of ethnic cleansing by Anglo-Saxons invaders following the Roman withdrawal in the fifth century.

Genetic tests show clear differences between the Welsh and English

It suggests that between 50% and 100% of the indigenous population of what was to become England was wiped out, with Offa's Dyke acting as a "genetic barrier" protecting those on the Welsh side.

And the upheaval can be traced to this day through genetic differences between the English and the Welsh.

Academics at University College in London comparing a sample of men from the UK with those from an area of the Netherlands where the Anglo-Saxons are thought to have originated found the English subjects had genes that were almost identical.

But there were clear differences between the genetic make-up of Welsh people studied.

The research team studied the Y-chromosome, which is passed almost unchanged from father to son, and looked for certain genetic markers.

Ethnic links: Many races share common bonds

They chose seven market towns mentioned in the Domesday Book of 1086 and studied 313 male volunteers whose paternal grandfather had also lived in the area.

They then compared this with samples from Norway and with Friesland, now a northern province of the Netherlands.

The English and Frisians studied had almost identical genetic make-up but the English and Welsh were very different.

The researchers concluded the most likely explanation for this was a large-scale Anglo-Saxon invasion, which devastated the Celtic population of England, but did not reach Wales.

Dr Mark Thomas, of the Centre for Genetic Anthropology at UCL, said their findings suggested that a migration occurred within the last 2,500 years.

Genetic links

It reinforced the idea that the Welsh were the true indigenous Britons.

In April last year, research for a BBC programme on the Vikings revealed strong genetic links between the Welsh and Irish Celts and the Basques of northern Spain and south France.

It suggested a possible link between the Celts and Basques, dating back tens of thousands of years.

The UCL research into the more recent Anglo-Saxon period suggested a migration on a huge scale.

"It appears England is made up of an ethnic cleansing event from people coming across from the continent after the Romans left," he said.

Celtic Britons

Archaeologists after the Second World War rejected the traditionally held view that an Anglo-Saxon invasion pushed the indigenous Celtic Britons to the fringes of Britain.

Instead, they said the arrival of Anglo-Saxon culture could have come from trade or a small ruling elite.

But the latest research by the UCL team, "using genetics as a history book", appears to support the original view of a large-scale invasion of England.

It suggests that the Welsh border was more of a genetic barrier to the Anglo-Saxon Y chromosome gene flow than the North Sea.

Dr Thomas added: "Our findings completely overturn the modern view of the origins of the English."

[LostTribe]

It is interesting that the Harp of the King David is the national symbol of Ireland. I think symbols like this persist long after language links have disappeared. (King David was of course an Israelite, but was not Jewish.)

[dr_who]

It is a representation of a bearded man.

[dr_who]

Was America a Phoenician Colony?

No.

[aristeides]

I am willing to consider evidence that I'm wrong. Do you have any?

[LostTribe]

Simply explain how you can be so cock sure the Norsemen totally lost their lingustic heritage IN ONLY THREE GENERATIONS or less, but everyone else you promote doesn't lose theirs in THOUSANDS OF YEARS!

It sounds like you simply don't know what you are talking about. Do you have a reasonable explanation for this astonishing disparity?

[aristeides]

Whether a conquering group loses its language depends on a number of factors, notably their relative numbers and whether or not they consider themselves culturally superior to those they conquer. Those conditions can vary.

I am just unaware of any evidence that the Normans who conquered England (and Sicily and Wales and Ireland, eventually) spoke any other language besides Norman French (and eventually the languages of the places they conquered). I am unaware of any evidence that these Normans spoke either their ancestral Scandinavian or any Celtic dialect that might have survived in Normandy (as far as I know, no such dialect survived). It may be difficult to explain why they lost their ancestral language so quickly, if they did. But unless and until I am faced with evidence that they did not lose it, I will assume that they did, in the face of all the evidence that their language was French (the language which had the most cultural prestige at the time, anyway, at least with the exception of Latin -- I will admit that I have been ignoring Latin, the language of the church and of the universities, once they got going, which was used throughout Europe).

[syriacus]

I only meant that I thought it was interesting that the two groups seemed to have chosen similar sounds. I have only heard the two languages. I don't know anything about the vocabulary or the grammar of either language. (Other than a tiny bit about the origins and translations of family names and place names).

[blam]

ASLIP (The association for the study of language in prehistory)

Is this any help?

[aristeides]

Thanks for the link.

[LostTribe]

> It may be difficult to explain why they lost their ancestral language so quickly, if they did. But unless and until I am faced with evidence that they did not lose it, I will assume that they did,

Thank You,  I appreciate your candor.  None of which has anything to do with The Lost Tribes of Israel becoming the Celts/Europeans/Americans/Christians of today.

[aristeides]

Well, speaking as someone who's about as pure Gaelic as you get in Ireland (to judge by great grandparents' names, I'm one-eighth Norman, one-eighth Old English, and three-quarters Gaelic,) I must say I have no consciousness of being part of any lost tribe of Israel.

[muawiyah]

"I am totally unaware of any evidence of their speaking some Celtic dialect."

To start with not all the men who attended William in the recovery of Great Britain to civilization were Normans! Secondly, not all the Normans spoke Norman-French. Thirdly, Norman-French was not necessarily a widespoken language, even in Normandy, if it was, in fact, spoken at all.

What you may or may not be personally aware of has no impact whatsoever on the reality of any given situation.

Since it's not my purpose to teach you about the Romantic Languages, I am going to leave you guessing about Gallo. Was it like French, or was it like Irish? The answer is on the Internet!

[LostTribe]

> I must say I have no consciousness of being part of any lost tribe of Israel.

Neither do I. Bad memory I suppose. --ggg--. But we are both as Celtic as they come.

Just view the Celts from their global perspective, even a continental European one, not a narrow traditional Irish, English or Brittainy one, and the curtains will part. -Regards

[muawiyah]

Bagpipes are attributed to the Romans. They were adopted by Gaelic speakers. While the rest of Europe rusted away in the Dark Ages, the Celtic Fringe raised their use to a high art.

[muawiyah]

I'd like to note that one of the hallmarks of what is known as the "English filter" is the attempt to deny any legitimacy to any element of Celtic civilization, culture or history.

We know all about the "English filter" these days and most knowledgeable people are instantly prepared to refute or rebut it as required.

[aristeides]

Since you're the one who's challenging received and settled opinion, it seems to me the burden of proof is on you. By the way, I looked up "Gallo" in my Encyclopaedia Britannica and found nothing. I then looked up "Normans" and "Normandy," and found no mention of their speaking any other language than Norman French. I am willing to look at any evidence you may provide.

[muawiyah]

From a list of English Kings:  Notice the guys who lived in Anjou.  They spoke Gallo.  They probably knew French, but in their day French still consisted of many dialects.  William "The Conqueror" probably knew Gallo quite well.  Else he might not have been able to speak with his closest advisors.  I suspect we can find evidence that he understood Breton, and probably a couple of German dialects.

King/Queen	reign	Royal House
William I	1066-1087	Normandy	`The Conqueror'
William II	1087-1100	Normandy	`Rufus'
Henry I	1100-1135	Normandy	`Beauclerc'
Stephen	1135-1141, 1141-1154	Blois
Matilda	1141 (April-Nov)	Normandy	`Empress Maud'
Henry II	1154-1189	Anjou
Richard I	1189-1199	Anjou	`Coeur de Lion'
John	1199-1216	Anjou	`Lackland'
Henry III	1216-1272	Anjou
Edward I	1272-1307	Anjou	`Longshanks'
Edward II	1307-1327	Anjou	`of Caernarfon'
Edward III	1327-1377	Anjou
Richard II	1377-1399	Anjou
Henry IV	1399-1413	Anjou
Henry V	1413-1422	Anjou	(Prince Hal)
Henry VI	1422-1461, 1470-1471	Anjou
Edward IV	1461-1470, 1471-1483	Anjou
Edward V	1483 (April-June)	Anjou
Richard III	1483-1485	Anjou

[muawiyah]

Uhh, you were aware, of course, that England was ruled for a very long time from Anjou, in Brittany?

Wouldn't want you to think I am tricking you. Nosirreebob!

[aristeides]

English is now unfashionable, and Celtic is now fashionable. I prefer to take no part in PC. My idiotic nationalist Irish relatives spurn Christianity, and give their children names like "Orla." It reminds of nothing so much as the Nazified Germans of a couple of generations ago.

No doubt the English treated my Irish people abominably. But that does not mean that humanity does not owe the English an enormous debt for their other deeds..

Blacks in this country seem, for whatever reason, unable to recognize this truth about whites in this country. I refuse to share their error.

[blam]

"While the rest of Europe rusted away in the Dark Ages, the Celtic Fringe raised their use to a high art."

The Dark Ages was worldwide.