Posted on 02/05/2014 9:40:42 AM PST by EveningStar
Streamed live on Feb 4, 2014
Is creation a viable model of origins in today's modern, scientific era? Leading creation apologist and bestselling Christian author Ken Ham is joined at the Creation Museum by Emmy Award-winning science educator and CEO of the Planetary Society Bill Nye.
(Excerpt) Read more at youtube.com ...
“If you don’t like that explanation, you don’t have to accept it.”
Okay, I don’t. It makes more sense to me that the Bible should be interpreted according to its own context, than that we should interpret it according to speculative narratives of naturalists, who don’t agree with the basic premise of the Bible in the first place.
What have you tried?
Not necessarily. "Facts" have to also be collaborated and proven as well. "Facts" to you may not be facts to another. Four people who watch an accident may have four different accounts of the same accident, so "facts" are not always as solid as you might think. Even scientific "fact" may not be unanimous. "Circumstantial evidence" is considered oftentimes more reliable than eyewitness accounts.
What is solid is truth, but that is another story and another discussion.
Having discussions like these? There’s not much more I can do to get conservatives to figure out a position on these issues. I can contribute my opinion, and argue against ones I think are foolish, and that’s about it.
Then you're stuck there until everyone agrees with you.
I never said radiocarbon dating is infallible; that would be the kind of statement to come from a Christian with respect to the so-called word of God, not from a scientist about a measurement technique. Like you I don’t have sufficient faith; but in my case I do not have sufficient faith to believe in something for which there is simply NO evidence whatsoever. That’s what’s called BLIND faith, and I don’t have any.
Please show me, if you can, any reference where an actual scientist alleges this to be true, or even makes such a notion a part of the Theory of Evolution. I don't want a "caricature scientist" conjured up in some creation lab, I want a REAL one.
I don't expect an answer, BTW, I don't think you can give me such a legit reference to such a bizarre notion.
The Bible has more validating proof than evolution does. Where are those transitory species?
I do admire your belief in a cult that has murdered 200 million people in the last century though. I just don’t have that type of blind faith in man.
Well, that is certainly the liberal, post-modern misdset. It's not normally subscribed to among traditionalists or conservatives, but I guess it can be when it suits the purpose.
All life has a common ancestor, right?
Life begins as a single cell organism. Call it a plant, call it an animal -- I don't care.
From that starting point, we get additional life forms. The order and succession does not matter. Worms, jellyfish, you name it. The evolution of life is a progression.
Along the way, we get mollusks and we get dogs. And apes.
Again, I don't care about the order, but if this sort of progression is expected -- and I do not think any evolutionist would disagree that it is expected -- then at various points, classification boundaries such as Kingdoms and Phyla would necessarily be crossed.
From a Biblical standpoint, no such classification boundaries need to be crossed, but Evolution says there is one starting point -- and everything which follows must necessarily cross boundary after boundary as the millions of years of evolution roll on.
In the sense of all of that, ID may not be "fact" but it is based on fact and is pretty solid, both on overwhelming evidence and on God's Word (Romans 1:20).
From Wikipedia:
Gould argued that evolution's drive was not towards complexity, but towards diversification. Because life is constrained to begin with a simple starting point ( like bacteria), any diversity resulting from this start, by random walk, will have a skewed distribution and therefore be perceived to move in the direction of higher complexity. But life, Gould argued, can also easily adapt towards simplification, as is often the case with parasites.
The thing to note here is the “simple starting point (like bacteria)” and the notion that diversity then leads life toward new forms. We don’t have to say “higher” forms. We don’t have to talk about “Progress”. But we start with bacteria and we end up with parasites – or Apes. Not that one is better than the other, but they are significantly different.
Gould did important work on the Cambrian Explosion, which really involves the emergence of new Phyla.
The Cambrian Explosion (500 mya) was an occurrence in which life consisted of certain, somewhat basic kinds – a small number of Phyla. But then (relatively suddenly) those Phyla became a great many other Phyla. An explosion of new Phyla appeared, branching off and adding significant diversity to life-forms on Earth. Whole new Phyla? How often does THAT happen?? Well, since the Cambrian Explosion, ummmmmmm, not very often. Which I think is very weird. Phyla were popping out of nowhere 500 million years ago, and then change at that level pretty much dried up. Why would that happen?? So the problem of explaining how new Phyla arise is very real, but let’s be very concrete and operate at a lower, simpler level – Class.
Evolution of land-dwelling creatures.
Conodonta (jawless eels) were primitive animals. Over time, we end up with jawed fish which any child would recognize as a fish.
Then we get something along the line of a “walking catfish” type of creature (Class: Actinopterygii).
This creature spends some time out of the water, but is primarily a water-dweller, with gills.
Over millions of years, this creature evolves into something we might call an amphibian – it spends some time IN the water, but is primarily a land-dweller, with lungs (Class: Amphibia)
Once creatures live on land -- over millions of years -- we see reptiles (Class: Reptilia) and later we see mammals (Class: Mammalia).
This is diversification described below the level of Phyla and far above the level of Species. I’m talking about Class but there are then lower boundaries such as Order, Genus, Family – you need to cross all of these boundaries if you go from jawless eel to a specific mammal such as an Ape.
We don’t even have a clear understanding of species and how one species becomes another. And that transition is MUCH simpler than a higher order boundary. You want to tell me that little Eohippus became an Arabian Stallion – heck, it’s not so much of a leap. It’s a bit like a wolf being the ancestor of a Chihuahua. If we operate at the level of Breeds, pretty much everyone sees things the same way. But go from gills to lungs or two chambered heart to four chambers, or no spinal column to a set of vertebrae. That’s hard to swallow. Speciation has not been demonstrated – but that’s not the hard part. Phyla, Class, Order, Genus, Family. Evolution has a tough road to travel.
Oh no, I believe in the miraculous...the binding of divine spirit to flesh and God breathing that flesh into a living soul.
I didn’t post the comet posting...God said he was going to destroy the Earth and I take it he did. The other stuff about Atlantis and stuff like that is speculation. I go for the plainest reading....God set 120 years from the time he first purposed to destroy the Earth and to help prepare Noah. The Bible says “God caused”. That’s good enough for me...whether comets or by the direct power of his word. God did it! I;m very comfortable with saying that. The fountains of the deep were opened up...God did that!
God “prepared a big fish” to swallow Jonah...got no problem with the notion God’s direct input into his matter universe.
His biggest intervention was to come as God in Flesh...Jesus Christ!
ping
One other point....Elijah was said to have observed an Earthquake...but God wasn’t in the Earthquake...rather he spoke to Elijah in a still small voice.
“Not by might or by power , but by My spirit says the Lord”. States another passage.
“God touches the mountains and they smoke.” Pompeii and Herculanum were very corrupt cities(think Sodom and Gomorrah), perhaps more so than Rome and were fairly dominant sea cities on the Atlantic coach...strategic both in location as well as a Chronological potential for trouble over time/and history. I can’t escape the notion that the Vesuvious eruption was not just a tragic phenomena of random natural processes.
I am quite open to the notion of direct intervention by God thru nature, or directly by his Spirit in the power of His spoken word. I recognize the danger of “naturalizing: biblical judments and phenomena for it may cause some trivialize God or even deny that God has any part of existence at all. I will never do that.
“You’re no more complex than an amoeba. Happy?”
My happiness is not the issue. In any case, the organic complexity of an amoeba, or that of my own glorious person, is beyond the control of either of us.
Whoever can control the terms controls the debate....
Yep, good to see you starting to see the truth of the matter. Very encouraging, in fact.
Scientists certainly do not shy away from the word "fact"; they use it all the time to refer to... well, to refer to facts. Most scientists would not call a theory a fact; why would they. Similarly most scientists would not call a "fact" a "theory".
This notion of your is basically ridiculous and absurd. As is your assertions that "However truth, which is from the Bible, God's Word, never changes." That's laughably false.
Truth does not need the Bible; Truth pre-existed the Bible and Truth will still be Truth long after the last Bible has crumbled onto dust and even mankind perhaps passed from the scene. Truth is innate in existence. It's the job of science to define and help us understand the truths innate in reality.
It's the job of science to define and help us understand the truths innate in reality.
Science does not define truths. It defines THEORIES. Math does the same, so does law. Law takes the best evidence and goes with it. Nothing is 100% certain. But God's Word, the Bible is certain.
Truth is innate in existence.
We've gone full circle. "Existence" is creation by a Creator proved by evidence beyond a reasonable doubt of ID. So before anything was the Creator God. "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth" (Genesis 1:1). So God was before creation. His Son, Jesus IS TRUTH (John 14:6) and his word, the Bible is truth (John 17:17). Truth never changes, it is an absolute. Science, math, law, life, facts, and theories change all the time. God exists as evidenced by ID and He is the one constant to hold onto because everything else is subject to change.
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