Posted on 06/21/2004 4:31:10 PM PDT by Quix
GREETINGS,
FOLLOWING is a note re todays Alaskan quake. First a comment about this thread.
SOME FREEPERS are fascinated with fringe areas of reality. Some of us even think the fringe areas of knowledge, research, anecdotal stories and the like will have very impactful effects on the WAR ON TERROR, WWIII, Biblical end time events etc.
WE ALSO FIND FREEPERS FULL OF GREAT CREATIVITY OF THOUGHT, INSIGHT, WORK RELATED EXPERIENCES AND SKILLS ETC. useful in collecting diverse puzzle pieces and in analyzing them. This diversity is priceless and virtually unavailable on any other site.
While we are seriously interested in topics which others scoff at, throw tinfoil hat assaults at and which we often even can't discuss calmly with many of our relatives and friends--we are either not all loonies or not 100% looney--though perhaps, hopefully, healthily insane in an insane society a la Eric Fromm.
Nevertheless, we do NOT enjoy nor appreciate hostile flame wars and the like just because we enjoy fringe puzzle pieces and analysis. Nor do we wish to cast the least bit of aspersions on FR.
I do not know how many of us will be willing to show up and post on this thread. Many are gunshy from all the flame attacks such topics typically trigger hereon. However, if my FREEPMAIL is any hint, there are plenty to be interested in such a thread.
HOWEVER, to whatever degree I may be graced with the ability to do so--this thread will NOT tolerate flame wars, flame posts, hostile jabs at other posters etc. I will do my utmost to get such posts pulled immediately.
The THREAT MATRIX thread has done mostly pretty well at creating and maintaining a lot of resourcefulness, creativity, camaraderie, mutual supportiveness and friendliness.
I hope and expect that this thread can even do better. Certainly I will do what I can to help make that happen.
If this thread flies and helps in any way analyze the WOT threats as well as natural disaster threats or any other plausible threats from 'reality' (whatever that is), then WONDERFUL. If it's just a good place to toss around the various puzzle pieces and their implications in a convoluted era and reality--that's worth some time, too.
If this thread dies and early death from disinterest, so be it.
If you have comments about the above, please post them! Hostile dereogatory posts will AT LEAST BE WHOLESALE IGNORED.
Below is some of the data on the recent quake and my comment on that.
-----------------------------------
A magnitude 5.2 earthquake IN SOUTHERN ALASKA has occurred at: 61.65N 151.25W Depth 81km Mon Jun 21 21:29:09 2004 UTC
Time: Universal Time (UTC) Mon Jun 21 21:29:09 2004 Time Near Epicenter Mon Jun 21 13:29:09 2004 Mountain Daylight Time (MDT) Mon Jun 21 15:29:09 2004
Location with respect to nearby cities: 85 km (55 miles) NW of Anchorage, Alaska (pop 260,000) 95 km (60 miles) SW of Talkeetna, Alaska (pop 700) 115 km (70 miles) W of Palmer, Alaska (pop 4,500) 1005 km (630 miles) WNW of JUNEAU, Alaska
I recall reading somewhere in the last month, a prediction that a very major devastating quake on the West Coast or the Pacific would occur shortly after a moderate quake in Alaska or just south of Alaska.
We shall see.
Personally, I'd vote for keeping Jihadi's out of quake shelters.
(Excerpt) Read more at earthquake.usgs.gov ...
Dr Walter Martin had an analogy that always made a lot of sense to me in this ball park.
First, I want to speak forcefully in behalf of FREE WILL.
I do NOT believe there can be any
MEANINGFUL, FUNCTIONAL
LOVE or RESPONSIBILITY
WITHOUT FREE WILL.
For the CHOICE TOWARD, FOR, IN BEHALF OF LOVE
to make any difference, any sense, there has to be
A DIFFERENT RESULT, A DIFFERENT CONSEQUENCE
than would occur following a choice toward, for, in behalf of NON LOVE.
And, it has to be a REAL consequence. One may be able at some point in the proces to apply a "get out of jail free card" but there has to be a REAL consequence that is different from the real consequence on the other side.
And, in fact, this is what Christians for centuries have observed. God's Grace is incredible. But often, even with forgiveness, there's still consequences for sinful, deadly choices. The parents of the murdered only son may forgive the murderer but prison can still be appropriate.
OTHERWISE,
there would be no sense to life or reality at all and chaos would reign. I may as well shoot you as feed you or give you flowers. One would make as much sense and be as 'fitting' as the other.
Walter Martin's analogy was, roughly paraphrased from memory:
Imagine a computer as massive as the universe. Programmed into the computer by the Master Programmer were all the possible choices by all the possible choice-ee's--choosers. At the level of and moment of choice, the individual components and contingencies of each situation are the realities impacting the awareness of those choosers.
The Master Programmer has a different level of awareness. He sees all and knows all and even knows which choice each component is going to make at a given point in time--which the Master Programmer is also outside of.
AND, THE MASTER PROGRAMMER ALSO HAS CHOICE about how to adjust the programming to result in HIS CHOICES for each individual component and for REALITY as a whole. He is NOT limited by our choices in bringing about HIS ULTIMATE RESULT OR CONDITION, SITUATION. He has dozens upon dozens of alternative ways of bringing about HIS CHOICE, HIS WILL.
lOOKS GREAT. Will try and finish reading it later today.
Thanks.
The Bible is pretty clear that God has nothing to do with sin.
I believe that we are legally perfect at the point of truly confessing, accepting Christ's Blood etc.
But it is a LIFETIME PROCESS of working that perfection into every cell and fiber of our being, our personality. When we die, I believe that Christ 'finishes' the process rather wholesale rather immediately and PRESENTS US TO THE FATHER BLAMELESS.
Yet, evidently there's still growing and learning in Heaven.
I agree.
Sometimes I get weary of discussions about
"MANIPULATION"
PRO & CON.
Certainly God is against people manipulating one another in any heavy handed, control freak sense.
But where does "manipulation" start and stop and "influence" start and stop?
We ALL seek to influence those around us more or less all the time--hopefully in good, open handed, open ended, truly free will-released sorts of ways for good motives.
NEURO-LINGUISTIC PROGRAMMING--NLP
I was taught a measure of it. Certainly have read some of the best in the business.
Many people are ignorant of it's development. It all started by a couple of characters called Bandler and Grinder who decided to study what the best therapists had in common. What made the most successful so successful regardless of philosophy, methodology etc.
A long story short . . . the set of principles discovered constitute NLP.
We all function with some measure of NLP. Being hypnotized by the stripes on the highway or by a preacher's cadence is a function of NLP principles, phenomena.
The Sermon on the Mount and the Parables of Jesus have been skillfully analyzed in terms of NLP principles--probably fairly accurately.
Does that mean that I think that Jesus was a master manipulator through 'artificial' (whatever that means in this context) NLP methods in some sort of premeditated, calculated etc. process, delivery etc.?
NO!
Jesus was/is God, Love, Peace, Hope, etc. And, He was/is/can only be
HIMSELF.
Being Himself, He's certainly going to be super effective at whatever He does--including telling stories, preaching a Sermon on The Mount etc.
Metaphor can be a very powerful aspect/tool of NLP.
And, men--male gender--men's brains are evidently structured much more to take in and evaluate much better, more rapidly, accurately etc. INFORMATION
RECEIVED IN STORY FORM.
When men get together. They tell stories about work, hunting, cars, sex, computers etc.
When women get together, they talk about relationships, feelings, intuitions etc.
Actually, it appears to be quite true that: IF a wife wants to persuade her husband of something and IF she constructs very well just the right story using the husband's primary reference modalities (visual, auditory, kinesthetic, audio/digital etc.) and the metaphors, themes tailor made to the husband's priorities--he will have no defense against it.
Does that mean that NLP is part of the end times GREAT DECEPTION ETC.
No. I don't think so.
And, being aware that such exists CAN BE a very powerful defense against it.
Advertising uses NLP very well and did so before we knew there was such a thing as NLP.
Presenting information visually, auditorilly and kinesthetically and especially doing so repeatedly in more or less that order in a variety of ways in the same message--is VERY POWERFUL.
It does NOT make free will humans robots. But it IS very powerful.
I think it gets back to
WHO IS OUR LORD. WHAT ARE OUR PRIORITIES. Do we live in fear of man and march to a drum pleasing or seeking to please other people?
Or
do we listen to the still small voice of our Lord in all we do REGARDLESS OF ANY AND EVERYTHING ELSE?
The mind manipulators will only get more skillful--including various kinds of waves impacting the brain directly with images, thoughts, supposed dreams even supposed voices of God. We must be able to detect the authentic from the manipulated counterfeit.
I never bothered to become all that skillful at NLP. It required toooooo much calculated paying tooooooo close attention to the clients for me. I'm much more of an intuitive fly-by-the-seat-of my spirit sort of counselor.
If I had to stop and match my breathing, notice carefully all the time which direction someone's eyes looked up at precisely which words etc.--it became too complicated and took far too much away from the sponteneity of the dialogue, to me.
Besides, I don't seem to have had much of a problem getting clients to pay attention and hear what I had to say fairly deeply and on multiple levels. I guess it's just something God has gifted me with.
Do I think NLP is inherently evil?
I think it's a VERY powerful tool. I think it CAN BE USED for great evil.
Do I think it's an OK tool for Christians to use in ministry, evangelism, counseling?
Hmmmm. Tough question.
I suppose Holy Spirit can use any tool.
But I'd think that walking under the guidance of Holy Spirit, one wouldn't need to bother much about NLP. Holy Spirit would naturally use whatever features were fitting and ignore the rest. Having to make such decisions in the natural based on NLP training etc. would be a real bother, hindrance, hazard, to me.
Were I a parent, would I use NLP in my childrearing and family relationships? I suppose I'd keep some things in mind. That is, I'd probably want to know and pay some attention to what
THE PRIMARY REPRESENTATIONAL SYSTEMS were for each family member
AND THEN TO ACCOMMODATE THEM by trying to communicate to them primarily in their naturally, genetically preferred modes.
It's kind of a somewhat painfully humorous given--an audio-digital man--typical computer geek--will marry a very KINESTHETIC oriented woman.
Not only do they have the different REALITIES that gender brain etc. differences create--they have the very different realities of primarily perceiving, representing and talking about/communicating about VERY DIFFERENT WORLDS BASED ON THE VERY KIND OF OPPOSITE PRIMARY REPRESENTATIONAL SYSTEMS.
Those facts about individuals are evidently genetic givens. Each of us has our own primary representational system. Some are real birds of rare plumage like me--and tend to have a much MORE NEARLY equal dependence on visual, auditory and kinesthetic.
It is foolish to try and evangelize a Chinese person speaking to them in unknown Spanish.
And particularly in some situations, when time, crises, stress, fatigue, whatever are serious components of a situation--it is very foolish to try and communicate something crucial to someone UNLESS IT'S IN THEIR PRIMARY REPRESENTATIONAL SYSTEM or at least very carefully done.
Wise parents have known from the dawn of time how to instinctively speak each child's 'native' 'language' to get important things across.
IN some respects, it's nothing more magical or mysterious than that.
It's just that now we know from quite a bit of scientific study the details and components of what that involves--and we have labels and a whole system of understanding describing that.
And, knowledge is power.
And, it seems that humans have unlimited capacity to pollute, to use any kind of power destructively whether willfully or unwittingly.
I guess in summary, I think SOME awareness of NLP is likely of significant benefit to any bright parent willing to bother.
But, anyone living close to Holy Spirit and walking, communicating very in step with HIS MOMENT BY MOMENT LEADING--can probably by pass all that tedious stuff.
I rarely consciously get into NLP stuff. I seem to naturally communicate fairly powerfully--at least face to face.
I suppose I could have saved myself some grief if I'd have skillfully used such techniques in some situations. It is at best a rather gentle nudging sort of art. But, I'd have probably more successfully and constructively saved myself some grief if I'd been able to listen more intently and obey more fully Holy Spirit at the time. I'd prefer the latter.
I don't know if this ramble has been of any value or not. But I felt constrained to at least run out something like this for people to make more informed decisions about the topic you raised.
One of the classic books on it is THE STRUCTURE OF MAGIC--TURNING FROGS INTO PRINCES. It's a book basically on therapy. And it's not about occult magic at all. It's just that the principles of NLP used well sometimes give results that appear to have been magical to the uninitiated.
All the same, I don't like titles which even have that word in them--magic! But, it was a good book. Taught me a lot.
The key is moving with the Ark,
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
what do you think he means by this?
i BELIEVE
it has to do with
MOVING WITH
THE *PRESENCE* OF THE LORD. . . . at least in step with His Spirit.
Well said.
Sorry am not getting to the longer postings as I'd prefer. Perhaps on Sunday.
So many priorities afoot.
HHHMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM!!!!!!!!
ELECTION 2004
Bilderberg 'performance'
key to Edwards VP pick
'He reported back directly to Kerry' said participant in super-secret conference
Posted: July 8, 2004
2:49 a.m. Eastern
© 2004 WorldNetDaily.com
Sen. John Edwards, D-N.C.
Sen. John Edwards' standout "performance" at the super-secret Bilderberg meeting in Italy last month may have been a key reason for his selection as John Kerry's vice presidential running mate, according to the New York Times.
The 50th anniversary conference of the elite group – which many believe conspires semi-annually to foster global government – met June 3 through June 6 in Stresa, Italy, at the Grand Hotel des Iles Borromees.
Among the attendees from the U.S., according to a list obtained by WND, were Senators John Edwards, D-N.C. and Jon Corzine, D-N.J., Henry Kissinger, Richard Perle, Melinda Gates (wife of Bill Gates), David Rockefeller, Timothy F. Geithner, president of the Federal Reserve Bank of New York, Donald Graham, chairman and CEO of the Washington Post Company, and even Ralph Reed, former head of the Christian Coalition.
(Here is the entire Bilderberg attendance list as published previously by WND.)
According to a report in yesterday's New York Times by Jody Wilgoren, analyzing why Kerry chose Edwards over the other 24 serious contenders for the No. 2 spot:
Several people pointed to the secretive and exclusive Bilderberg conference of some 120 people that this year drew the likes of Henry A. Kissinger, Melinda Gates and Richard A. Perle to Stresa, Italy, in early June, as helping win Mr. Kerry's heart. Mr. Edwards spoke so well in a debate on American politics with the Republican Ralph Reed that participants broke Bilderberg rules to clap before the end of the session. Beforehand, Mr. Edwards traveled to Brussels to meet with NATO officials, brandishing his foreign-policy credentials.
"His performance at Bilderberg was important," said a friend of Mr. Kerry who was there. "He reported back directly to Kerry. There were other reports on his performance. Whether they reported directly or indirectly, I have no doubt the word got back to Mr. Kerry about how well he did."
Since 1953, the Bilderberg group has convened government, business, academic and journalistic representatives from the U.S., Canada and Europe with the express purpose of exploring the future of the North Atlantic community.
According to sources that have penetrated the high-security meetings in the past, the Bilderberg meetings emphasize a globalist agenda and promote the idea that the notion of national sovereignty is antiquated and regressive.
'Shadowy aura'
"It's officially described as a private gathering," noted a BBC report last year, "but with a guest list including the heads of European and American corporations, political leaders and a few intellectuals, it's one of the most influential organizations on the planet."
And according to a BBC report on June's conference in Stresa: "Not a word of what is said at Bilderberg meetings can be breathed outside. No reporters are invited in and while confidential minutes of meetings are taken, names are not noted. The shadowy aura extends further – the anonymous answerphone message, for example; the fact that conference venues are kept secret. The group, which includes luminaries such as Henry Kissinger and former UK chancellor Kenneth Clarke, does not even have a website."
But, counter participants, the secrecy is not evidence of a grand conspiracy, but only an opportunity to speak frankly with other world leaders out of the limelight of press coverage and its inevitable repercussions.
"There's absolutely nothing in it," argues the UK's Lord Denis Healey, one of the four founders of Bilderberg. "We never sought to reach a consensus on the big issues at Bilderberg," he told the BBC. "It's simply a place for discussion."
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=39333
thank you quix, for summing up - in a really great way - NLP etc. though im not in counseling per se, my experiences with it have led me to the same conclusions. awareness of it is useful in the sense of avoiding its influence. the holy spirit is able, and my faith is in the son of god!
i am studying daniel because i think there are clues there as to the nature, identity, and characteristics of end-time events & persons/players. daniel 7's symbols parallel 2's i think, and seem to shed further light on neb's dream in dan. 2.....particularly interesting to note is the creature with 10 horns (dan7; 7). i think the mention of the toes in daniel 2; 41 & 2 (two times!) is the parallel. (10 toes = 10 horns).
i keep thinking of jesus' admonition to pay special attention to SPECIFICALLY this; "(let the reader understand)" .... i hope that by his spirit, we may come to greater "understanding"! thank you for starting this thread. i am working on post-roman history (iron mixed with clay)to try to identify the 10 horns/toes. the better to identify the 3 that "fell" (7;20), with the goal of identifying the main player....the little horn - the abomination. please be patient, and i hope this is not too boring....i have to go to the library to dig thru some history, and will return soon if thats ok. god bless you! LUB
IF WE ASSUME,
as I increasingly do
that the scheduled
GLOBAL 10 REGIONS
are the 10 kings in the various prophecies . . .
then the mixture is certainly plausible.
I believe that any AGREEMENT between quasi/former Roman C South America with Hindu India with Moslem Central Asia etc. will be tentative at best--particularly led by demonic forces inherently at each other's throats.
Now, what are the 3 kinds which . . . fall?
Europe could be gobbled by Russia.
North America could be gobbled by China/Russia.
South America would be easily controlled by others with more umph and arms.
Australia could be conquered or at least hemmed in by China.
Africa is likely to be a mess or controlled except MAYBE for South Africa. But South Africa may well be a client of Islam or Russia or?
Will have this 3 kings thing some more prayerful thought.
Lazy or tired.
Do you have the ref or verses for the mid trib aspect of the 10 kings etc?
I forget. Is that when the 3 kinds go down?
Blessings,
Perhaps the quasi together/quasi-at-each-others's-throats arrangement
will be somewhat like the UN only more so?
If, as I've come to believe, it is the slated 10 REGIONS the puppet masters are planning or have already divided the world up into . . . 'trade zones' for now . . . Certainly the values of those regions are quite different. And values of a culture don't change very rapidly on the whole. Certainly killing off 1/3--2/3 of the world's population would help but still--values of cultures are rather resistent to wholesale change--especially fast.
So, I think it is exceedingly realistic that they will not mix.
I think too, clay/ceramic is brittle. Iron rusts but has more tensile strength than clay. Perhaps the industrialized world could be construed to be the steel or iron and the relatively undeveloped world could be the clay???
wELL PUT.
IMhO,
YES and NO.
The article makes great points about didactic vs dialectic vs synthesis etc. and the language that goes with each and comparing satan's ways, tools and language etc.
But somehow, it just misses it, for me.
Have been reared in the Assemblies. Respect a lot about them in their desire to follow God and hear God via Holy Spirit, etc.
Alas, the Assemblies and all groups, congregations--THAT HAVE EXISTED FOR PROBABLY A YEAR AND A HALF
have by then acquired
TRADITIONS OF MEN,
CUSTOMS,
HABITS,
VALUES ETC.
which are not entirely Spirit-led.
Certainly the Assemblies has plenty of barnacles to rid itself of.
Certainly one size does NOT fit all the world over.
Last I heard, there were still Assemblies congregations in Africa where the women attended services topless.
And certainly French Assemblies congregants drink wine.
I think EVERY local congregation needs to REINVENT itself fairly regularly
TO STAY UP WITH WHAT CREATIVE HOLY SPIRIT IS DOING.
That does NOT automatically mean individuals or committees or groups, congregations or denominations need to get lost in a morass of slippery relativism or end up doing satan's work satan's way.
HOLY SPIRIT IS TYPICALLY FRESH, NOW as well as TRUE TO THE HISTORICAL SCRIPTURES.
But language changes in a society. That's why we need new translations.
Society changes.
Certainly we must hold to the Biblical facts and truths. ESPECIALLY THE CORE DOCTRINES and a lot of others are non-negotiable. The Biblical facts and even prophecies are unalterable.
Perhaps an analogy . . . I went to see GODSPELL expecting to walk out in the middle of what I expected to be a blasphemous movie. I was touched by God's Spirit through that film. It's certainly not the way I'd have made a movie about Christ. But I recognized that Christ's truths about Himself and His message were still there. And, it reached folks which THE ROBE would never have reached.
I SUSPECT it is LONG OVERDUE for the Assemblies of God and a lot of others to reinvent themselves UNDER HOLY SPIRIT'S GUIDANCE.
I think Holy Spirit can use a variety of ways to effect HIS change.
Ideally, I'd like to see that the AOG leadership fasted and prayed sufficiently for God to speak to them, and they shared it with signs following with the troops.
And, we hear a lot of noise in the 5 FOLD MINISTRY stuff to suggest that GOD IS SETTING UP HIS GOVERNMENT in the world today etc. And one gets the feeling that most of the noise is convinced that it will be some sort of authoritarian structure of a more or less pyramid shape.
I think they are mostly wrong.
Christ emphasized in the NT the Priesthood of the Believer. There need be NO intercessor or intermediary between each individual and The Father, essentially.
I see the future remarkably flat in terms of heirarchy. I suspect there will be some sort of hierarchy for SOME things. But that each individual will still have more or less direct access to The Father by His Spirit, by His Son.
AND WHAT HIERARCHY THERE IS WILL BE SERVANT LEADERS or they won't be leaders. Enough of this preaching about it but never doing it.
All of which to say, hierarchy is not automatically righteous just because it thinks it is or quotes more KJV verses than some other individual(s). Nor is it automatically righteous just because it fits some new 5 FOLD MINISTRY paradigm with accompanying top down structure according to this list of modern prophets and apostles--often self-proclaimed.
There IS a place for 'polling the grass roots' so to speak. JESUS HIMSELF ATE AND SLEPT WITH HIS DISCIPLES--John apparently routinely on Christ's chest. The Apostle Paul servant-heartedly served those he ministered to.
The best house church leaders in Mainland China serve the people rather humbly and very servant-heartedly in spite of their culture's addiction to rank and hierarchy.
Respect and authority are earned--evidently in God's economy--by servant-heartedness, humility, self-less love.
Certainly one must rely first and foremost on Holy Spirit about the needs of those one is around. But, for a variety of reasons, it is wise, loving and Christlike to LISTEN to them, and that heart-to-heart.
Certainly one get's one's marching orders from God. But way back with Moses, GOD HIMSELF INSTRUCTED MOSES ABOUT HOW TO LISTEN TO THE PEOPLE.
I get rather wary and concerned about appeals to authoritarian leadership as THE ONLY WAY as though some unalterable, essential aspects of it were cast in stone at Mt Sinai.
THE WAY IS CHRIST AND HIM CRUCIFIED.
A lot of other stuff is petty details best and well tailored to the individual(s) and culture concerned.
imho.
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