Was "Babylon The Great" a Symbolic Name for Jerusalem?

That is a very important statement to keep in mind when considering the following passages: and later in the same chapter of Luke, Jesus added:

"…I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute: That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation; From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation." (Luke 11:47-51 KJV)

That is pretty clear. Jerusalem is responsible for the blood of all the prophets, and at least some of the apostles. There is more in Matthew:

"Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in yoursynagogues, and persecute them from city to city: That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation." (Mat 23:34-36 KJV)

So, Jerusalem was not only responsible for the blood of all the prophets (and some apostles;) but for all the righteous blood shed upon the earth. And vengeance for that blood was required of the generation that Jesus was speaking to.

We all know that is exactly what happened within that generation: the Roman armies completely destroyed Jerusalem and the temple in 70 AD, fulfilling this prophecy by Jesus:

"And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down." (Mat 24:1-2 KJV)

But how do those verses compare to those on Babylon the Great found in the Revelation?

In the Revelation, Babylon the Great is also called the great whore, the mother of harlots, the great city, and the woman. In the context of blood responsibility, John mentions this:

"And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration." (Rev 17:6, KJV)

The first martyr of Jesus was Stephen, if I recall correctly; and there were many more. The next chapter reveals additional facts:

"And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth." (Rev 18:24, KJV)

But, according to Jesus, Jerusalem is supposed to be responsible for the blood of all the prophets; and Jerusalem is responsible for all the righteous blood? Yet, in the following verse we see that God avenged the blood of the apostles and prophets on Babylon the Great.

“Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.” (Rev 18:20, KJV)

1. Jerusalem killed many of the apostles, yet their blood was avenged on Babylon the Great

2. Jerusalem is responsible for the blood of all the prophets, yet their blood was avenged on Babylon the Great.

3. Jerusalem was responsible for the blood of all the righteous, yet Babylon the Great was responsible for "all that were slain on the earth."

There are many other references in the Revelation that tie Babylon the Great to old Jerusalem. This is one of many:

"And their dead bodies [the two witnesses] shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified." (Rev 11:8 KJV)

It seem our Lord Jesus Christ was killed in both Babylon the Great and Jerusalem. It is difficult to imagine Babylon the Great being any other city than Jerusalem.

Perhaps your missing something?

Deuteronomy 18:1 The priests the Levites, and all the tribe of Levi, shall have no part nor inheritance with Israel: they shall eat the offerings of the LORD made by fire, and his inheritance.

Numbers 18:24 For the tithes of the children of Israel, which they offer up as a heave offering to the Lord, I have given to the Levites as an inheritance; therefore I have said to them, 'Among the children of Israel they shall have no inheritance.'

Joshua 13:14 Only unto the tribe of Levi he gave none inheritance; the sacrifices of the LORD God of Israel made by fire are their inheritance, as he said unto them.

Joshua 18:6 You shall describe the land in seven divisions, and bring the description here to me. I will cast lots for you here before the LORD our God. 7 For the Levites have no portion among you, because the priesthood of the LORD is their inheritance. Gad and Reuben and the half-tribe of Manasseh also have received their inheritance eastward beyond the Jordan, which Moses the servant of the LORD gave them.

Now the Levites did need somewhere to live so there was land and cities allotted to them but they did not own or inherit the land.

Joshua 21:1 Then came near the heads of the fathers of the Levites unto Eleazar the priest, and unto Joshua the son of Nun, and unto the heads of the fathers of the tribes of the children of Israel; 2 And they spake unto them at Shiloh in the land of Canaan, saying, The Lord commanded by the hand of Moses to give us cities to dwell in, with the suburbs thereof for our cattle. 3 And the children of Israel gave unto the Levites out of their inheritance, at the commandment of the Lord, these cities and their suburbs.

It gets rather tedious trying to discuss scripture with you when it’s obvious you know so little about it.

>> Except when it is 13 or 14, as is the case in Ezekiel, when Levi and the sons of Zadok are included.<<

What? You don’t have a number 12 when you count to 14?

>> What about the verses just before those, Cynical?<<

Ezekiel 34 doesn’t say that David is King. It says he is the King’s servant. And NO it can’t be Cyrus.

Ezekiel 34:23 And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, even my servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd.

I’m not going to spend time to explain it all but I will simply send you to here to begin to understand if you care to know truth.

And NO it’s not “spiritualizing to believe that it’s David. Before the millennium the saved will be given new bodies and will reign with Christ.

Like I’ve said before, take your head out of those Preterist books and sites and you may learn something of scripture truth.

AF_Vet, I was going back over some of my old posts, and re-read this post by you, when I noticed what appeared to be an attempt by some group to smear all Presbyterians by insinuating they were somehow the same as the goofy, liberal Presbyterian USA bunch. "The Clarion Project complains that the Presbyterian Church partnered with Islamists and those Islamists want to make the church their “Islamophobia” police. The Presbyterian Church (USA) and its Islamic interfaith partners have also made common cause when it comes to Israel. The Church almost voted in favor of divestment from Israel last summer, winning praise from the director of ISNA’s Office of Interfaith Relations, Sayyid Syeed." The reason I am asking is because you, like the Clarion Group, did not distinguish the "church" that ordains homosexuals and women, with the traditional, reformed church that has been around for centuries. The half-hearted "USA" in parentheses, after first claiming the culprit was "the Presbyterian Church," leads me to believe this is simply another attempt to destroy the church from within by the Father of Lies. I assume that was not your intention. Would it not be prudent to exercise caution when choosing articles from outside sources with unknown or hidden agendas? You know as well as I how useful the anti-semite smear has been to Satan in recent years. What was once a useful label has been turned into a tool of hate and destruction by Satan and his anti-christian forces. Thanks, Philip

Presbyterianism, a religious movement begun in the 1500s largely based on the theology of John Calvin and John Knox. There does not seem to be one Presbyterian Church, but rather seems to be organized along national boundaries. In the United States it seems to keep re-inventing itself by serially splitting and re-forming. At number 10, Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) is the largest of the Presbyterian denominations in this country. The USA seems to be the national designation for it. The other seceding entities do not seem to be large enough to make the top 25. When I previously asked you if your Presbyterian church supported the boycott of Israel you declined to respond. Fast Facts about American Religion indicates the following:

Largest 25 Denominations/Communions from the 2012 Yearbook of American and Canadian Churches.
Total church membership reported in the 2012 Yearbook is 145,691,446 members, down 1.15 percent over 2011. 1. The Catholic Church 68,202,492, [ranked 1 in 2011] , down 0.44 percent. 2. Southern Baptist Convention 16,136,044, [ranked 2 in 2011] , down 0.15 percent. ** Since the 2010 census of nondenominational/independent congregations, we now know that this grouping of churches, if taken together, would be the second largest Protestant group in the country with over 35,000 congregations and over 12,200,000 adherents. 3. The United Methodist Church 7,679,850, [ranked 3 in 2011] , down 1.22 percent. 4. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints 6,157,238, [ranked 4 in 2011], up 1.62 percent. 5. The Church of God in Christ 5,499,875, [ranked 5 in 2011] , no update reported. 6. National Baptist Convention , U.S.A. , Inc. 5,197,512, [ranked 6 in 2011] , up 3.95 percent. 7. Evangelical Lutheran Church in America 4,274,855, [ranked 7 in 2011] , down 5.90 percent. 8. National Baptist Convention of America , Inc. 3,500,000, [ranked 8 in 2011] , no update reported. 9. Assemblies of God 3,030,944, [ranked 9 in 2011] , up 3.99 percent. 10. Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) 2,675,873, [ranked 10 in 2011] , down 3.42 percent. 11. African Methodist Episcopal Church 2,500,000, [ranked 11 in 2011] , no update reported. 12. National Missionary Baptist Convention of America 2,500,000, [ranked 11 in 2011] , no update reported. 13. The Lutheran Church — Missouri Synod (LCMS) 2,278,586, [ranked 13 in 2011] , down 1.45 percent. 14. The Episcopal Church 1,951,907, [ranked 14 in 2011] , down 2.71 percent. 15. Pentecostal Assemblies of the World, Inc. 1,800,000, ranked 15 [ranked 17 in 2011] , up 20 percent. 16. Churches of Christ 1,639,495, [ranked 15 in 2011] , no update reported. 17. Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America 1,500,000 , [ranked 16 in 2011] , no update reported. 18. The African Methodist Episcopal Zion Church 1,400,000, [ranked 18 in 2011] , no update reported. 19. American Baptist Churches in the U.S.A. 1,308,054, [ranked 19 in 2011] , down 0.19 percent. 20. Jehovah’s Witnesses 1,184,249, [ranked 20 in 2011] , up 1.85 percent. 21. Church of God ( Cleveland , Tennessee ) 1,074,047, [ranked 22 in 2011] , down 0.21 percent. 22. Christian Churches and Churches of Christ 1,071,616, [ranked 23 in 2011] , no update reported. 23. Seventh-day Adventist Church 1,060,386, [ranked 24 in 2011] , up 1.61 percent. 24. United Church of Christ 1,058,423, [ranked 21 in 2011], down 2.02 percent. 25. Progressive National Baptist Convention, Inc. 1,010,000, [ranked 25 in 2011 ], no update reported. Total membership in top 25 churches: 145,691,446, down 1.15 percent.

>>>Perhaps your missing something?<<<

>>>Deuteronomy 18:1 The priests the Levites, and all the tribe of Levi, shall have no part nor inheritance with Israel: they shall eat the offerings of the LORD made by fire, and his inheritance.<<<

>>>It gets rather tedious trying to discuss scripture with you when it’s obvious you know so little about it.<<<

I was being cynical, Cynical. But I see it gave you a temporary reprieve from attempts to spiritualize a solution to how the tribe of Dan received land in Ezekiel 48, when there is no tribe of Dan mentioned among the tribes in Revelation 7, nor anywhere else in the New Testament. You can't explain it, because the prophecy of Ezekiel 47-48 was about the return from Babylon. I see you left your spiritualized interpretation for those verses out of this post. Maybe later.

I also mentioned earlier that the tribe of Levi is listed as one of the twelve in the Revelation, but not in Ezekiel. There are some substantial discrepancies that will require much spritualization to remedy. But this is why I posted the part about the Levites, the part that was so tedious you failed to see this:

"It shall be for the priests that are sanctified of the sons of Zadok; which have kept my charge, which went not astray when the children of Israel went astray, as the Levites went astray." (Eze 48:11 KJV)

Please explain how that would still be an issue 2500+ years in the future.

>>>Ezekiel 34:23 And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, even my servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd.<<<

>>>Ezekiel 34 doesn’t say that David is King. It says he is the King’s servant. And NO it can’t be Cyrus.<<<

This is that verse in context:

"Therefore will I save my flock, and they shall no more be a prey; and I will judge between cattle and cattle. And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, even my servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd. And I the Lord will be their God, and my servant David a prince among them; I the Lord have spoken it. And I will make with them a covenant of peace, and will cause the evil beasts to cease out of the land: and they shall dwell safely in the wilderness, and sleep in the woods." (Eze 34:22-25 KJV)

That passage does not say David is King, but this one does:

"And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them. And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever. Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore." (Eze 37:24-26 KJV)

David is mentioned in both, as a servant of the Lord, and as a King or prince; but he is also their shepherd, similar to Cyrus. But wait, there is more! David is a prince for ever; and the new covenant is labeled a "covenant of peace." Is this David the prince of peace that is referenced in Isaiah 9:6? You remember him: the "Everlasting Father?"

Earlier we were also discussing Hosea 3:4-5 where it says David would be the King.

"Afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek the Lord their God, and David their king; and shall fear the Lord and his goodness in the latter days." (Hos 3:5 KJV)

Wasn't Hosea 3 referring to the return from Babylon? The reason I mentioned that is that passaged is because later it refers to the punishment of Judah and Ephraim; and even later, the new covenant that was mentioned in the two aforementioned Ezekiel passages.

So which is it? Is David the King and shepherd, or is Christ? And if David serves the king (who is Christ,) then why is he mentioned as a stand-alone in all those passages, across several books.

>>>I’m not going to spend time to explain it all but I will simply send you to here to begin to understand if you care to know truth. <<<

Well, I read it; and the author provided no clarification of the dispensational position, whatsoever, other than a lesson on how to spiritualize the scriptures. This is how he explains David as king:

"Jer. 30:9, “But they shall serve Jehovah their Elohim, and David their king whom I will raise up unto them”. This verse clearly states that David will be king and that Israel will serve him as well as Christ."

That chapter, Jeremiah 30, was referring primarily to the return from Babylonian captivity; for example:

"Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, saith the Lord; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid. For I am with thee, saith the Lord, to save thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet I will not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished." (Jer 30:10-11 KJV)

"Thus saith the Lord; Behold, I will bring again the captivity of Jacob's tents, and have mercy on his dwellingplaces; and the city shall be builded upon her own heap, and the palace shall remain after the manner thereof." (Jer 30:18 KJV)

Does that sound like Jerusalem today? No, that was the Lord talking about the decree to rebuild Jerusalem after the return from Babylon. David was most likely Cyrus, the servant of the Lord; but he could have been Christ. The reason he might be Christ is because of this verse found in the continuation chapter 31:

"Thus saith the Lord; A voice was heard in Ramah, lamentation, and bitter weeping; Rahel weeping for her children refused to be comforted for her children, because they were not." (Jer 31:15 KJV)

That prophecy was fulfilled in Matthew 2:18 when Herod killed all the children age two and under, in an attempt to kill the baby Jesus. And there was this:

"Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:" (Jer 31:31 KJV)

That new covenant: the "covenant of peace" in Ezekiel, is the new testament for which Christ shed his blood. Therefore, the continuation chapter 31 refers to the birth and death of Christ. The obvious fulfillment of the "return from captivity" would be the return from Babylon under Cyrus.

Let's dig deeper. Where does it say that David and Christ will "reign" together? No where that I am aware of. The only ones specifically named to reign with Christ are the disciples. Remember these promises?

"And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." (Mat 19:28 KJV)

"And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me; That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel." (Luke 22:29-30 KJV)

How does David fit in? And do you think the disciples are not kings? Remember this guy?

"John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne; And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen." (Rev 1:4-6 KJV)

How about these guys:

"And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth." (Rev 5:8-10 KJV)

That makes between 28 and 36 kings, so far, depending on whether the disciples are part of the other group, or not. But there are more. Recall the first resurrection in Revelation 20:

"Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years." (Rev 20:6 KJV)

Why does David get all the ink about being a future king in the old testament, and absolutely none in the new testament? Don't you think that is a bit odd?

>>>And NO it’s not “spiritualizing to believe that it’s David. Before the millennium the saved will be given new bodies and will reign with Christ. <<<

One would think that Ezekiel, Jeremiah and Hosea would at least mention some of those other people that reign with Christ, instead of merely David as King, standing alone. And one would also think that if David was selected to reign with Christ, the prophets would say, at least once, that David would reign with Christ.

>>>Like I’ve said before, take your head out of those Preterist books and sites and you may learn something of scripture truth.<<<

I am reasonably certain at this time that I will learn no truth from you.

BTW, the author of your link also wrote this:

"Let us first establish as Scriptural truth that Christ will rule in the millennium, and then we will examine those scriptures which concern David’s role during the millennial reign."

Most are aware that Christ reigns forever, which includes the so-called "millennium." But the author never establishes that Christ will physically reign on earth during the millennium. The reason he did not is because he can't. The notion that Christ will physically reign on earth was created by spiritualizing the scriptures, which is what you do on a regular basis, Cynical Bear.

Philip

Well, I read the article from the so-called "Rapture Ready" site. It was difficult reading all that spiritualization; but I managed to plod through it. One of his first dispensational arguments was a very common one:

"It is in this work that he argues for an early date (pre-A.D. 70) of the giving of the Book of Revelation to the Apostle John. This is a necessary component for the preterist theory."

What the author doesn't tell you is dispensationalism: all futurism, for that matter, is in the same boat. If it is proven (and I believe it is) that the Revelation was written before 70 A.D., the entire dispensational house of cards comes crashing down, along with that enormous end-times book industry built on doom and gloom.

Here's more:

"Further, a natural, proper reading of the Book of Revelation, even though it uses symbols, has Christ returning physically in Revelation 19:11-21, just like He said in Acts 1:9-11, and then setting up His 1,000 year reign upon planet earth upon that return.?

Notice how the author provides no proof whatsoever that Christ returns physically to earth. He actually spiritualized Rev 19:11-21 and pretended he didn't. Spiritualization is the only way he could pretend Christ physically returns to earth. Not once in the entire chapter is Christ, or his armies, said to be on earth. For example:

"And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean." (Rev 19:14 KJV)

Another "return to earth" myth perpetuated by futurists is their spiritualization of Acts 1:9-11. Let's look at the text carefully:

"And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven." (Acts 1:9-11 KJV)

What does that really say? It says, "when Christ returns from heaven, he returns in a cloud." Not once does it say he returns to earth. In fact, in all references to his coming, Christ indicated he would come in "clouds," in one manner or another. But he never said he would return physically to earth. One would think such an important event would have many references. But there are none.

The author finishes the article with the same tired misdirection:

"Preterism rises and falls upon the validity of their so-called "time texts.""

And so does dispensationalism.

Philip

>>I was being cynical,<<

Actually your total lack of understanding of scripture was obvious and glaring.

>>I also mentioned earlier that the tribe of Levi is listed as one of the twelve in the Revelation, but not in Ezekiel.<<

Once again it’s rather simple. In Revelation God is simply listing the number from each tribe that is being protected. It’s not who gets land or anything else.

>>So which is it? Is David the King and shepherd, or is Christ? And if David serves the king (who is Christ,) then why is he mentioned as a stand-alone in all those passages, across several books.<<

Actually it’s you who has to show that Christ is still considered a “servant” after His resurrection.

Ezekiel 37:24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.

>>Wasn't Hosea 3 referring to the return from Babylon?<<

No.

>>So which is it? Is David the King and shepherd, or is Christ?<<

First show me where Jesus is referred to as a servant after His resurrection.

>>David was most likely Cyrus, the servant of the Lord; but he could have been Christ.<<

Spiritualize much? Or is it allegory?

>>That new covenant: the "covenant of peace" in Ezekiel, is the new testament for which Christ shed his blood.<<

What are you? Dispensational now?

Christ will rule on earth from Jerusalem and all the saints with Him.

Zechariah:14:1 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:

7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the Lord, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.

8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

9 And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.

10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.

11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the Lord shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour.

14 And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance.

15 And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague.

16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the Lord will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

20 In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, Holiness Unto The Lord; and the pots in the Lord's house shall be like the bowls before the altar.

21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the Lord of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the Lord of hosts.

With that I will leave you to your Preterist dillusions.

Notice how the author provides no proof whatsoever that Christ returns physically to earth.

When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.

The context of Acts 1:6-11 is the Apostles asked Messiah Jesus if he was going to immediately restore the kingdom to Israel now that he was risen from the dead. He said it was not for them to know the time, implying a future restoration of the kingdom to Israel.
The angel said Messiah would come again in the same manner as they saw him go into heaven. They saw him taken up from the the Mount of Olives, from the very earth into a cloud, not from the cloud into heaven. The implication is he will return from a cloud to the earth.
Zechariah 14, is about the LORD coming to the earth, specifically to the Mount of Olives, to fight the Goim (nations/Gentiles) that have attacked Jerusalem, and afterward to be king over all the earth. It is right in front of you.

Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:

But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.

And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

We should listen to the Holy Spirit. It is a trap to point out the poor choice other generations made and then make them ourselves. Consider Psalm 95 with John 9.

O come, let us sing unto the Lord: let us make a joyful noise to the rock of our salvation.

Let us come before his presence with thanksgiving, and make a joyful noise unto him with psalms.

For the Lord is a great God, and a great King above all gods.

In his hand are the deep places of the earth: the strength of the hills is his also.

The sea is his, and he made it: and his hands formed the dry land.

O come, let us worship and bow down: let us kneel before the Lord our maker.

For he is our God; and we are the people of his pasture, and the sheep of his hand. To day if ye will hear his voice,

Harden not your heart, as in the provocation, and as in the day of temptation in the wilderness:

When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my work.

Forty years long was I grieved with this generation, and said, It is a people that do err in their heart, and they have not known my ways:

Unto whom I sware in my wrath that they should not enter into my rest.

And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth.
And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?
Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.
I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.
As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.
When he had thus spoken, he spat on the ground, and made clay of the spittle, and he anointed the eyes of the blind man with the clay,
And said unto him, Go, wash in the pool of Siloam, (which is by interpretation, Sent.) He went his way therefore, and washed, and came seeing.
The neighbours therefore, and they which before had seen him that he was blind, said, Is not this he that sat and begged?
Some said, This is he: others said, He is like him: but he said, I am he.
Therefore said they unto him, How were thine eyes opened?
He answered and said, A man that is called Jesus made clay, and anointed mine eyes, and said unto me, Go to the pool of Siloam, and wash: and I went and washed, and I received sight.
Then said they unto him, Where is he? He said, I know not.
They brought to the Pharisees him that aforetime was blind.
And it was the sabbath day when Jesus made the clay, and opened his eyes.
Then again the Pharisees also asked him how he had received his sight. He said unto them, He put clay upon mine eyes, and I washed, and do see.
Therefore said some of the Pharisees, This man is not of God, because he keepeth not the sabbath day. Others said, How can a man that is a sinner do such miracles? And there was a division among them.
They say unto the blind man again, What sayest thou of him, that he hath opened thine eyes? He said, He is a prophet.
But the Jews did not believe concerning him, that he had been blind, and received his sight, until they called the parents of him that had received his sight.
And they asked them, saying, Is this your son, who ye say was born blind? how then doth he now see?
His parents answered them and said, We know that this is our son, and that he was born blind:
But by what means he now seeth, we know not; or who hath opened his eyes, we know not: he is of age; ask him: he shall speak for himself.
These words spake his parents, because they feared the Jews: for the Jews had agreed already, that if any man did confess that he was Christ, he should be put out of the synagogue.
Therefore said his parents, He is of age; ask him.
Then again called they the man that was blind, and said unto him, Give God the praise: we know that this man is a sinner.
He answered and said, Whether he be a sinner or no, I know not: one thing I know, that, whereas I was blind, now I see.
Then said they to him again, What did he to thee? how opened he thine eyes?
He answered them, I have told you already, and ye did not hear: wherefore would ye hear it again? will ye also be his disciples?
Then they reviled him, and said, Thou art his disciple; but we are Moses' disciples.
We know that God spake unto Moses: as for this fellow, we know not from whence he is.
The man answered and said unto them, Why herein is a marvellous thing, that ye know not from whence he is, and yet he hath opened mine eyes.
Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth.
Since the world began was it not heard that any man opened the eyes of one that was born blind.
If this man were not of God, he could do nothing.
They answered and said unto him, Thou wast altogether born in sins, and dost thou teach us? And they cast him out.
Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God?
He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him?
And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee.
And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him.
And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.
And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also?
Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

I don’t generally support any boycotts crossing national boundaries. Recall the history of my people, for which some international Jewish big-shots organized an international boycott against Germany in the early 1930’s that turned the entire German nation against the Jews. We saw how that ended.

I asked about your particular Presbyterian church; did they vote on it ? I find it rather shocking that you would blame international Jewish big-shots for turning the entire German nation against the Jews. That is classic antisemitism, where did you learn that ? Satan turned most of the German nation against the Jews and they followed him with fervor.

That said, I didn’t feel a need to respond to any loaded question. On a similar note, you never answered my loaded question about your love for the Jews, when I asked, “which Jews?” If you recall I segregated my questions by race and religion, so you could pick and choose.

I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.

And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live. But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour? And Jesus answering said, A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead. And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side. And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked on him, and passed by on the other side. But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him, And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him. And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave them to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee. Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves? And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.

When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

>>>Actually your total lack of understanding of scripture was obvious and glaring.<<<

You have shown nothing but spin and smears, Cynical Bear. That is because you have placed yourself in a scriptural corner, and you must resort to dispensational debating points (e.g., smear, redirect, smear, redirect, . . . ) if you expect to have any hope of getting out.

I Wrote, in part: >>>I also mentioned earlier that the tribe of Levi is listed as one of the twelve in the Revelation, but not in Ezekiel.<<<

Cynical Wrote: >>>Once again it’s rather simple. In Revelation God is simply listing the number from each tribe that is being protected. It’s not who gets land or anything else.<<<

Very slick, Cynical Bear. You completely avoided my intended question: about why an old sin by Levi would still be an issue way in the future. You avoided it by redirecting the answer to a general statement preceding the question. Very slick.

Besides, you even put the spin on that response, as you have everything else! There is no proof that the twelve in the Revelation are anything but the 12 tribes of Israel; or that that the twelve in Ezekiel are mentioned for any reason except for land distributions after the return from Babylon. And you completely avoided the tribe of Dan. If Ezekiel was prophesying distant future land distributions, he would have known that the tribe of Dan would not exist in the distant future. Please refrain from spiritualizing the scripture, Cynical Bear.

I Wrote: >>>So which is it? Is David the King and shepherd, or is Christ? And if David serves the king (who is Christ,) then why is he mentioned as a stand-alone in all those passages, across several books.<<

Cynical Wrote: >>>Actually it’s you who has to show that Christ is still considered a “servant” after His resurrection.<<<

No, Cynical Bear: it is you who has to prove that, in the New Testament, David serves either as king, prince, shepherd, servant, or in any other capacity. Since the Old Testament mentions him as king, prince, servant, and as shepherd (the only shepherd,) there should be at least one reference of David's future role in the New Testament. Yet there is none! This is David prophesied as both king and as the only shepherd in the Old Testament:

"And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, even my servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd." (Eze 34:23 KJV)

"And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them. " (Eze 37:24 KJV)

I Wrote: >>>So, they shall have one shepherd, David, and not Christ? Somehow I always thought Christ the Lord was our shepherd, not David? You are spiritualizing the scriptures, Cynical Bear.<<<

Cynical Wrote: >>>I believe you have misstated the verses on David.<<<

How so? Explain yourself, Cynical Bear! How did I misstate those verses, when Ezekiel 34:23 plainly states that there shall be one shepherd, and David shall be their shepherd? You are spiritualizing the scriptures, Cynical Bear.

I Wrote: >>Wasn't Hosea 3 referring to the return from Babylon?<<

Cynical Wrote: >>>No.<<<

No? Is that all you have as proof? Your opinion? Sorry, Cynical, but the total worth of all your opinions is somewhere near zero.

I Wrote: >>So which is it? Is David the King and shepherd, or is Christ?<<

Cynical Wrote: >>>First show me where Jesus is referred to as a servant after His resurrection.<<<

You first. Where is David mentioned in the New Testament as a servant in any role: king, prince, shepherd, servant, . . . , in any role? You made it up, Cynical Bear, and your vain attempts at redirection will not work with me. You should know that by now.

I Wrote: >>David was most likely Cyrus, the servant of the Lord; but he could have been Christ.<<

Cynical Wrote: >>>Spiritualize much? Or is it allegory?<<<

It is more along the lines of interpretation of the Spirit; or, as is written, words that were written by prophets who were moved by the Holy Ghost, and not by their own private interpretations.

Besides, I have no problem with allegorical or figurative interpretations of the scripture. It is dispensational doctrine that demands literal interpretation! Prove your doctrine is not made up out of thin air. Prove it is literal, Cynical Bear! Prove that the many statements about David, by at least three prophets, are literal!

You can't, and therefore you won't. You will spin, smear, and do everything you can to avoid showing proof, because you cannot prove it!

I Wrote: >>>That new covenant: the "covenant of peace" in Ezekiel, is the new testament for which Christ shed his blood.<<

Cynical wrote: >>>What are you? Dispensational now?<<<

Prove me wrong, Cynical.

To Everyone Else! The new covenant, explained in detail in the Hebrews 8-10 (mostly in 9), is also called:

1) the "covenant of peace" in Ezekiel 34:25 and 37:26, and the "everlasting covenenant" in Ezekiel 16:60 and 37:26;
2) the "everlasting covenant" in Isaiah 55:3 and 61:8, and the covenant of peace in Isaiah 54:10;
3) the "everlasting covenant" in Jeremiah 32:40 and the "new covenant" in Jeremiah 31:31;
4) the "new covenant" in Heb 8:8, 8:13 and 12:24 and "everlasting covenant" in Hebrews 13:20;

This is Jeremiah 31:

"Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more." (Jer 31:31-34 KJV)

Listen to the same covenant mentioned by Jesus:

"Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves. No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me." (John 6:42-45 KJV)

Jesus also explained the new covenant this way:

"For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins." (Mat 26:28 KJV)

Hebrews chapter 9 explains the old and new covenants are, in reality, the old and new testaments.

Cynical Bear Wrote: >>>Christ will rule on earth from Jerusalem and all the saints with Him.<<<

Cynical showed no proof whatsoever; but he did post the entire chapter of Zechariah 14 as a redirection, with the pretense that he actually understands Zechariah; and then finished with yet another redirection:p>

>>>With that I will leave you to your Preterist dillusions.<<<

You see what I have been putting up with? The fact that Cynical Bear continuously spiritualizes the scriptures--the scriptures he claims should be taken literally--should be a lesson to everyone that the doctrine of dispensationalism is a made-up, new-age sham.

Philip

>>>The context of Acts 1:6-11 is the Apostles asked Messiah Jesus if he was going to immediately restore the kingdom to Israel now that he was risen from the dead. He said it was not for them to know the time, implying a future restoration of the kingdom to Israel.<<<

He didn't imply anything. He plainly made a promise:

"And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth." (Acts 1:4-8 KJV)

Jesus was only sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel (Mat 15:24;) and he promise his disciples they would receive special powers, and then they would continue his mission to the convert the lost sheep. The verse you quoted was an interruption by the disciples, and Jesus made no implication, other than the disciples did not need to know anything other than what he was promising them.

Let's assume you are right in your guess. If Jesus was intending to restore the kingdom to Israel, why did he send the Roman armies to destroy Israel about 40 years later? Why not simply let them keep it? They already had the kingdom:

"Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder. And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them. But when they sought to lay hands on him, they feared the multitude, because they took him for a prophet." (Mat 21:42-46 KJV)

Some (mostly dispensationalists) claim that when Jesus said the kingdom of God would be given to a nation, he was simply stating he was taking the kingdom from the Jewish leadership, and giving it to the people of Israel. There are other theories, as well. But Paul plainly stated the "other nation" included the Gentiles:

"What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God. Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth. And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha. What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed." (Rom 9:22-33 KJV)

So, no matter how it is spun, that stumblingstone is there to keep us honest.

>>>The angel said Messiah would come again in the same manner as they saw him go into heaven. They saw him taken up from the the Mount of Olives, from the very earth into a cloud, not from the cloud into heaven. The implication is he will return from a cloud to the earth.<<<

That is the traditional interpretation, but there is no supporting scripture. Even the scriptural "treasure" for the so-called rapture, 1 Thess 4:13-18, falls flat when a Greek word study is performed. Paul is saying they will forever by with the Lord in the clouds or in the air, and there is not a whisper about returning to earth. That is also what Acts 1:9-11 is saying to anyone who is willing to throw away preconceived notions and read it for what it actually says.

>>>Zechariah 14, is about the LORD coming to the earth, specifically to the Mount of Olives, to fight the Goim (nations/Gentiles) that have attacked Jerusalem, and afterward to be king over all the earth. It is right in front of you.<<<

It says no such thing. Not once is a Gentile mentioned in chapter 14; yet Zechariah uses the word Gentile in Chapter 1. The word heathen is used only once, but not in the context you claim. In fact, if you do a careful examination of who is really fighting who, it is these guys:

"And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the Lord shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour." (Zech 14:13 KJV)

If you read Josephus you will see that some of the worst horrors (if not THE worst) came from the very bloody civil war that started in the city before the Roman armies arrived. It was Jew against Jew, or as in verse 13, "neighbour against neighbour." Zech 11 has a similar verse:

"For I will no more pity the inhabitants of the land, saith the Lord: but, lo, I will deliver the men every one into his neighbour's hand, and into the hand of his king: and they shall smite the land, and out of their hand I will not deliver them." (Zec 11:6 KJV)

A little later in that chapter is this verse prophesying Judas and the 30 pieces of silver:

"And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver. And the Lord said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the Lord." (Zec 11:12-13 KJV)

That is very informative for anyone looking for a proper time context. The same for Chapter 14, which has this verse:

"And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be." (Zec 14:8 KJV)

That verse comes a few verses after the so-called "splitting of the mount of Olives," and exactly one verse before the verse that states the following:

"And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one." (Zec 14:9 KJV)

But what event does the previous verse, Zech 14:8, reference? The answer is the Day of Pentecost in Acts 2. The proof is found in the Gospel of John:

"In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)" (John 7:37-39 KJV)

Read carefully the verse in parentheses. It explains that Jesus was referring to those receiving the Holy Spirit, in Jerusalem, on the day of Pentecost. Zech 14:8 states that the living waters go out from Jerusalem. Combined with 14:9, they say that on the day of Pentecost, the Lord became king over all the earth.

A very careful reading--one that avoids any attempt to literalize that which cannot be literalized--will reveal that the last four chapters of Zechariah refer to the betrayal and crucifixion of Christ, and then the day of Pentecost which did not occur until Jesus had ascended to the Father.

>>>We should listen to the Holy Spirit. <<<

You bet we should. Maybe you should tell that to the carnally minded, for example, the dispensationalists.

>>>It is a trap to point out the poor choice other generations made and then make them ourselves.<<<

I would be worse than the worst of sinners if I did not warn those who, by ignoring history, are in danger of repeating it.

>>>Consider Psalm 95 with John 9.<<<

1 O come, let us sing unto the Lord: let us make a joyful noise to the rock of our salvation.
2 Let us come before his presence with thanksgiving, and make a joyful noise unto him with psalms.
11 Unto whom I sware in my wrath that they should not enter into my rest.<<<

Unfortunately, they didn't enter into his rest, except for the remnant and the holy men of old. You know that I am familiar with all those verses in Psalms 95; and they were, in seems, a continuation of a warning by Moses:

"Moreover all these curses shall come upon thee, and shall pursue thee, and overtake thee, till thou be destroyed; because thou hearkenedst not unto the voice of the Lord thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which he commanded thee: And they shall be upon thee for a sign and for a wonder, and upon thy seed for ever. Because thou servedst not the Lord thy God with joyfulness, and with gladness of heart, for the abundance of all things;" (Deu 28:45-47 KJV)

That warning was almost universally ignored. The same with this warning by David:

"Make a joyful noise unto the Lord, all ye lands. Serve the Lord with gladness: come before his presence with singing." (Ps 100:1-2 KJV)

That said, there is a verse, that I have never heard preached, that I believe is the most important to expose the myth that Israel would be restored (by the Lord):

"When thy sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to their former estate, and Samaria and her daughters shall return to their former estate, then thou and thy daughters shall return to your former estate." (Eze 16:55 KJV)

Examine that verse carefully, and then imagine when Sodom will be returned to its former estate. I say, never! And who is underlined as "thou?"

"Son of man, cause Jerusalem to know her abominations," (Eze 16:2 KJV)

I must believe that Jerusalem will never return to its former estate. Otherwise, I would have to believe that Sodom will be restored to all it's former "glory." That is not going to happen.

>>>Consider . . . John 9.<<<

"And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth. And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind? Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him." (John 9:1-3 KJV)

I am not sure what your point is. Are you a Universalist? Are you implying that "All Israel will be Saved," while ignoring Paul's explanation that there are not "All Israel" in "All Israel?"

What exactly are you implying? Do you think that God made men do evil things? Or do you think, as the scripture teaches, that God chose evil men to carry out his judgement, etc., because they were going to be punished for their evil, anyway? Examples would be, God's use and later punishment of the Pharaoh, the Chaldeans, etc..

Philip

>>>I asked about your particular Presbyterian church; did they vote on it?<<<

Frankly, I doubt they would even know what you are talking about. I didn't. We don't talk about such things in Church. We are not obsessed with anything, that I am aware of, except maybe showing reverence to God during our services. Well in my case I will declare that I am possibly obsessed with reading and debating God's Word, and maybe gardening.

>>>I find it rather shocking that you would blame international Jewish big-shots for turning the entire German nation against the Jews. That is classic antisemitism, where did you learn that?<<<

That is called Classic History and Classic Truth that has been brushed under the rug and kept there by the threat of receiving the anti-semite label in our nation, and the threat of imprisonment in some other nations. Talk about a Pharisaic stranglehold! How is that different from stoning the early Christians for the false charge of blasphemy? And imprisonment for speech? I am astonished Christian nations have fallen this far in my lifetime.

When you attempt to use that smear on me, I label it Classic Anti-Christian Bigotry, which puts you in the same league as those darlings of freedom: the American Civil Liberties Union and the Anti-Defamation League, whose deceitful titles hide the fact that they are primarily interested in destroying Christianity; but under the cloak of fighting anti-semitism.

You obviously don't have a clue about what happened in Germany, other than what you have been spoon-fed by the Anti-Christian Bigots. Untermyer organized the boycott against the best wishes of the American Jewish Committee who tried to explain to that arrogant old fool that things were highly sensitive. But he pushed the boycott along, anyway: and he was a lawyer with a lot of money and influence. He was no different than the arrogant, power-hungry fools that are destroying our nation, and other nations, today. You will never convince them they are not right, because the "know" they are.

This was the title of the New York Times article on Untermyer's arrogance (my bold and underline):

UNTERMYER SEES HITLER'S END SOON; Effective Boycott Can Upset Regime Within a Year, He Says at Youngstown. HE IS CRITICAL OF ZIONISTS. Prague Negotiations Harmful, He Asserts in Talk to B'nai Brith Lodges. THE NEW YORK TIMES; August 28, 1933

He certainly showed Hitler who was boss, didn't he? Talk about head-in-the sand arrogance!

That article, by the way, came directly from the New York Times archive; not from some lunatic fringe website.

From what I understand, at that time a good chunk of the German people did not hate the Jews; and I don’t' believe there was any general persecution of Jews. I seem to recall they could all have left if they wanted to; and many did. There were some round-ups and possible persecutions and/or imprisonments of the German communists (the Bolshevik Jews) who showed allegiance to Stalin; but that would be treason in any country, even today. But by the time Untermyer and the lunatic fringe that followed were finished, the Germans were almost universally behind Hitler, and against the Jews.

You are quick to smear, but you know it won't work with me. I will throw it back in your face every time. I know that you ignore God's instruction that Christians be no respecter of persons. In fact, I have never read anything you have written about how much you love whites, blacks, Hispanics, Indians, Chinese, Christians generally, or anyone else, but Jews.

Yet I'm a Jew, and you seem to despise me. Do you despise me because I am not in love with Jews as an individual race, but only as members of the human race, like God instructs? If I single them out as special, I show respect of persons and therefore deny God. Are you trying to brow-beat me into denying God?

I will, however single out Christians as special. But that is another matter altogether.

>>>Satan turned most of the German nation against the Jews and they followed him with fervor.<<<

Satan, huh? So you believe Moses was a false prophet? Why do I get the feeling you despise the prophesies of Moses?

To everyone else, Moses said Israel (as a nation) would be cursed if they did not follow God's commandments and statutes; and Moses said they would be destroyed as individuals if they did not hear Jesus Christ. It doesn't get much clearer than that. Yet, some on this forum believe that God will give them a pass because they are "his chosen people."

I tell you the truth when I say they are no longer God's chosen people, and have not been since the days of Christ: maybe even since the days they were carried away into Babylon! Recall that God at one time destroyed nations before them when the entered the promised land. Then, less than a thousand years later, he turned on them and sent other nations to destroy and enslave them! Why? Because they broke God's covenant with them one too many times.

No matter what you have heard, God will not restore Jerusalem to its former estate until he restores Sodom and Samaria to their former estates (Ezekiel 16:55.) And that will not happen.

>>>I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you. And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? . . . <<<

I had asked you why you love Jews; that is, why you single them out?” And your response is that? Quoting a bunch of scripture cannot explain why you continue to show respect of persons, against the teaching of God's Word.

We are all one blood, friends (Acts 17:26.) Don't believe anyone who tries to divide us.

Philip

>>>I assume that far into the future means prophecy that has not yet been fulfilled.<<<

All the old testament has been fulfilled. When prophesying the destruction of Jerusalem in Luke, Jesus said:

"For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled." (Luke 21:22 KJV)

Only a part of the Revelation has not been fulfilled.

>>>When you see patterns in scripture you can be sure they are not coincidence. <<<

You are correct. For example, I see all sorts of patterns in old testament prophecy pointing to the Church, which is described in the Hebrews as follows:

"But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant..." (Hebrews 12:22-24)

Therefore, mount Sion is a heavenly place where we find the city of the living God: the heavenly Jerusalem. The heavenly Jerusalem is also referred to in the Revelation as the "holy city, New Jerusalem;" the "beloved city;" and "the bride, the Lamb's wife." It is also referred to in Hebrews 12:23 as the Church, the term used by many Christians, including me.

Note Paul used the words, “ye are come unto mount Sion” rather than “ye will come unto mount Sion.” Therefore, mount Sion and the heavenly Jerusalem--the Church--existed at the time Paul wrote the epistle, which was about mid-first century.

With that context in mind, the following passages further identify the heavenly mount Sion:

"Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed. But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;” (1 Peter 2:5-9 )

"But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed." (Romans 9:31-33)

"For through him we [Jews and Gentiles] both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit." (Ephesians 2:18-22)

We see in these epistles the heavenly mount Sion is also the location of the holy temple, which was built upon the foundation of the holy apostles and prophets, with Jesus Christ being the chief cornerstone of the holy temple, and with Christians forming part of the building and framework.

To dispel the bizarre notion that the Church was an afterthought--created only because the Jews rejected Christ--the chief cornerstone of the Holy Temple at heavenly Sion (aka, Zion) was also prophesied by Isaiah, which was one of the references used earlier by Peter and Paul:

"Wherefore hear the word of the Lord, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem. Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves: Therefore thus saith the Lord God, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste. Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place. And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it." (Isaiah 28:14-18)

That passage was also a warning to the leadership at Jerusalem to accept Christ, and not reject Him.

In Matthew 21:42 Jesus quoted David (below) who also prophesied that Jesus would become the chief cornerstone:

"The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner. This is the Lord's doing; it is marvellous in our eyes." (Psalms 118:22-23 )

And Isaiah wrote of the stumblingstone in another chapter:

"And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem." (Isaiah 8:14)

Notice the “stumblingstone” serves both as a sanctuary for the just, and a snare for the wicked.

Anyway, the prophets described the Church in the same manner as the apostles referenced above.

>>>Sometimes the meaning is taken directly from scripture but more often we must use reasoning and logic to find it.<<<

You mean that you must, at times, spiritualize the scripture, don't you?

>>>Scripture is not always juxtaposed to its interpretation. <<<

Then maybe you know why dispensationalists insist the old testament prophecies be taken literally, except when it contradicts their preconceived notions about the future. Why so much inconsistency if literalism is the way to go? Why not simply admit that the OT prophecies cannot be taken literally because they are metaphorical imagery? Maybe you know the answer to that.

>>>God’s consistent use of his metaphors also allows us to determine the meaning when it is not given directly.<<<

LOL! What you are saying is, "as long as you (me) interpret the scripture the way I, and other futurists do, then you are interpreting correctly." Isn't that what you are saying?

>>>I am not arguing the meaning of the symbols here but rather the method for interpreting scripture. <<<

That is exactly what I am arguing. Only I used an entirely different method. I let the scripture interpret the scripture. For example, when I read "the seven churches in Asia," I don't make up a bunch of nonsense about them. They are "THE seven churches in Asia" that existed at the time the Revelation was written, and nothing else. Anyone who adds words to the prophecy, like Scofield did, is a deceiver.

>>>I can show you several passages where history is prophecy.<<<

So can I. I am not sure what your point is. For example, take this verse from the Revelation as an example of historical fulfillment:

"And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great." (Revelation 16:21)

Now read this historical fulfillment from the Wars of the Jews, by Flavius Josephus, in reference to the Roman siege of Jerusalem in 70 AD, where he writes:

"The [catapult] engines, that all the [Roman] legions had ready prepared for them, were admirably contrived; but still more extraordinary ones belonged to the tenth legion: those that threw darts and those that threw stones were more forcible and larger than the rest, by which they not only repelled the excursions of the Jews, but drove those away that were upon the walls also. Now the stones that were cast were of the weight of a talent, and were carried two furlongs [1/4 mile] and further. The blow they gave was no way to be sustained, not only by those that stood first in the way, but by those that were beyond them for a great space." [Wars of the Jews, V.6.3]

How is that for historical fulfillment of a metaphorical prophecy in the Revelation? BTW, Josephus had no dog in the fight. He was an orthodox Jewish Priest.

Philip

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