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To: PhilipFreneau
Notice how the author provides no proof whatsoever that Christ returns physically to earth.
  1. The context of Acts 1:6-11 is the Apostles asked Messiah Jesus if he was going to immediately restore the kingdom to Israel now that he was risen from the dead. He said it was not for them to know the time, implying a future restoration of the kingdom to Israel.
  2. The angel said Messiah would come again in the same manner as they saw him go into heaven. They saw him taken up from the the Mount of Olives, from the very earth into a cloud, not from the cloud into heaven. The implication is he will return from a cloud to the earth.
  3. Zechariah 14, is about the LORD coming to the earth, specifically to the Mount of Olives, to fight the Goim (nations/Gentiles) that have attacked Jerusalem, and afterward to be king over all the earth. It is right in front of you.

  1. Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
  2. For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
  3. Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
  4. And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
  5. And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
  6. And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
  7. But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
  8. And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
  9. And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

We should listen to the Holy Spirit. It is a trap to point out the poor choice other generations made and then make them ourselves. Consider Psalm 95 with John 9.


309 posted on 03/30/2014 8:44:12 PM PDT by af_vet_1981 (The bus came by and I got on, That's when it all began)
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To: af_vet_1981
>>>The context of Acts 1:6-11 is the Apostles asked Messiah Jesus if he was going to immediately restore the kingdom to Israel now that he was risen from the dead. He said it was not for them to know the time, implying a future restoration of the kingdom to Israel.<<<

He didn't imply anything. He plainly made a promise:

"And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth." (Acts 1:4-8 KJV)

Jesus was only sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel (Mat 15:24;) and he promise his disciples they would receive special powers, and then they would continue his mission to the convert the lost sheep. The verse you quoted was an interruption by the disciples, and Jesus made no implication, other than the disciples did not need to know anything other than what he was promising them.

Let's assume you are right in your guess. If Jesus was intending to restore the kingdom to Israel, why did he send the Roman armies to destroy Israel about 40 years later? Why not simply let them keep it? They already had the kingdom:

"Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder. And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them. But when they sought to lay hands on him, they feared the multitude, because they took him for a prophet." (Mat 21:42-46 KJV)

Some (mostly dispensationalists) claim that when Jesus said the kingdom of God would be given to a nation, he was simply stating he was taking the kingdom from the Jewish leadership, and giving it to the people of Israel. There are other theories, as well. But Paul plainly stated the "other nation" included the Gentiles:

"What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God. Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth. And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha. What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed." (Rom 9:22-33 KJV)

So, no matter how it is spun, that stumblingstone is there to keep us honest.


>>>The angel said Messiah would come again in the same manner as they saw him go into heaven. They saw him taken up from the the Mount of Olives, from the very earth into a cloud, not from the cloud into heaven. The implication is he will return from a cloud to the earth.<<<

That is the traditional interpretation, but there is no supporting scripture. Even the scriptural "treasure" for the so-called rapture, 1 Thess 4:13-18, falls flat when a Greek word study is performed. Paul is saying they will forever by with the Lord in the clouds or in the air, and there is not a whisper about returning to earth. That is also what Acts 1:9-11 is saying to anyone who is willing to throw away preconceived notions and read it for what it actually says.


>>>Zechariah 14, is about the LORD coming to the earth, specifically to the Mount of Olives, to fight the Goim (nations/Gentiles) that have attacked Jerusalem, and afterward to be king over all the earth. It is right in front of you.<<<

It says no such thing. Not once is a Gentile mentioned in chapter 14; yet Zechariah uses the word Gentile in Chapter 1. The word heathen is used only once, but not in the context you claim. In fact, if you do a careful examination of who is really fighting who, it is these guys:

"And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the Lord shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour." (Zech 14:13 KJV)

If you read Josephus you will see that some of the worst horrors (if not THE worst) came from the very bloody civil war that started in the city before the Roman armies arrived. It was Jew against Jew, or as in verse 13, "neighbour against neighbour." Zech 11 has a similar verse:

"For I will no more pity the inhabitants of the land, saith the Lord: but, lo, I will deliver the men every one into his neighbour's hand, and into the hand of his king: and they shall smite the land, and out of their hand I will not deliver them." (Zec 11:6 KJV)

A little later in that chapter is this verse prophesying Judas and the 30 pieces of silver:

"And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver. And the Lord said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the Lord." (Zec 11:12-13 KJV)

That is very informative for anyone looking for a proper time context. The same for Chapter 14, which has this verse:

"And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be." (Zec 14:8 KJV)

That verse comes a few verses after the so-called "splitting of the mount of Olives," and exactly one verse before the verse that states the following:

"And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one." (Zec 14:9 KJV)

But what event does the previous verse, Zech 14:8, reference? The answer is the Day of Pentecost in Acts 2. The proof is found in the Gospel of John:

"In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)" (John 7:37-39 KJV)

Read carefully the verse in parentheses. It explains that Jesus was referring to those receiving the Holy Spirit, in Jerusalem, on the day of Pentecost. Zech 14:8 states that the living waters go out from Jerusalem. Combined with 14:9, they say that on the day of Pentecost, the Lord became king over all the earth.

A very careful reading--one that avoids any attempt to literalize that which cannot be literalized--will reveal that the last four chapters of Zechariah refer to the betrayal and crucifixion of Christ, and then the day of Pentecost which did not occur until Jesus had ascended to the Father.


>>>We should listen to the Holy Spirit. <<<

You bet we should. Maybe you should tell that to the carnally minded, for example, the dispensationalists.

>>>It is a trap to point out the poor choice other generations made and then make them ourselves.<<<

I would be worse than the worst of sinners if I did not warn those who, by ignoring history, are in danger of repeating it.


>>>Consider Psalm 95 with John 9.<<<

1 O come, let us sing unto the Lord: let us make a joyful noise to the rock of our salvation.
2 Let us come before his presence with thanksgiving, and make a joyful noise unto him with psalms.
11 Unto whom I sware in my wrath that they should not enter into my rest.<<<

Unfortunately, they didn't enter into his rest, except for the remnant and the holy men of old. You know that I am familiar with all those verses in Psalms 95; and they were, in seems, a continuation of a warning by Moses:

"Moreover all these curses shall come upon thee, and shall pursue thee, and overtake thee, till thou be destroyed; because thou hearkenedst not unto the voice of the Lord thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which he commanded thee: And they shall be upon thee for a sign and for a wonder, and upon thy seed for ever. Because thou servedst not the Lord thy God with joyfulness, and with gladness of heart, for the abundance of all things;" (Deu 28:45-47 KJV)

That warning was almost universally ignored. The same with this warning by David:

"Make a joyful noise unto the Lord, all ye lands. Serve the Lord with gladness: come before his presence with singing." (Ps 100:1-2 KJV)

That said, there is a verse, that I have never heard preached, that I believe is the most important to expose the myth that Israel would be restored (by the Lord):

"When thy sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to their former estate, and Samaria and her daughters shall return to their former estate, then thou and thy daughters shall return to your former estate." (Eze 16:55 KJV)

Examine that verse carefully, and then imagine when Sodom will be returned to its former estate. I say, never! And who is underlined as "thou?"

"Son of man, cause Jerusalem to know her abominations," (Eze 16:2 KJV)

I must believe that Jerusalem will never return to its former estate. Otherwise, I would have to believe that Sodom will be restored to all it's former "glory." That is not going to happen.


>>>Consider . . . John 9.<<<

"And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth. And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind? Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him." (John 9:1-3 KJV)

I am not sure what your point is. Are you a Universalist? Are you implying that "All Israel will be Saved," while ignoring Paul's explanation that there are not "All Israel" in "All Israel?"

What exactly are you implying? Do you think that God made men do evil things? Or do you think, as the scripture teaches, that God chose evil men to carry out his judgement, etc., because they were going to be punished for their evil, anyway? Examples would be, God's use and later punishment of the Pharaoh, the Chaldeans, etc..

Philip

313 posted on 04/01/2014 12:38:59 AM PDT by PhilipFreneau
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