Notre Dame to host Catholic-Mormon conference

Notre Dame News ^ | November 27th, 2013 | Michael O. Garvey

[StormPrepper]

-- Hebrews 1:1-2

Yes and after Jesus left the earth, there were prophets on the earth again weren't there.

[StormPrepper]

"So, contrary to your opinion, there WILL still be a chance for unbelievers to come to Christ. It won't be easy on them, but they can come to Him before they die. After someone dies, then it is too late to be saved."

And all those people that have lived and died and never heard of Christ? Where do you put them?

"Angels are not "people", never were, never will be. They are a separate class of created beings."

You have no prophets or revelation that would tell you such a thing.

"You don't understand grace, then. We can KNOW we HAVE eternal life through faith in Jesus Christ."

And that's what the people Jesus spoke of in Luke 13 thought too. But when they found out they didn't there was weeping and gnashing of teeth. Same in Matt 7. Very clear warnings.

Another warning in 2 Tim 3. This is one of the most telling warnings.
2 Tim 3:
1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.

He's talking about our time.

5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

They have a form of godliness. A type of godliness, but it's not real. You can see it every where... no revelation today. They appear godly but they actually deny the power of God through their action and doctrine.

8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.

Jannes and Jambres were priests in Pharaoh's court and they denied the true prophet. "So do these also".

In the last days, our days, "godly" has to refer to "Christianity". No one else has a "form" of godliness as Paul would relate to.

Back to a question I've asked several times now; did God choose the list of books that are that are currently available in the Bible to be in the Bible?

[boatbums]

I can prove it in God's word. The difference is I listen to all of God's word and not just a small piece of it. Those priests that chose which books to call canon where not prophets nor were they lead by God. God said all scripture is good. Not just the little the Catholics let you have.

We already talked about this. Since we BOTH say we accept the Bible as the word of God and authoritative, then ALL our discussion should center around what we both hold as God-breated truth. There are HUNDREDS, maybe more, of the writings of men (and women) that lay claim to being God's spokesperson and that their writings - usually ABOVE anyone elses' - are THE truth and to be believed. This "little list" you say I accept from the Catholics - though it really has NOTHING to do with the Catholics - has proven to be Divinely revealed sacred Scripture. That your standards for determining what is or isn't directly from God allows you to accept your religion's founders as also inspired by God doesn't mean I also have to accept them. So, no, you cannot prove God the Father was once a man before He was God. Since you cannot prove by the Bible what you say about God, I reject your version with a clear conscience.

To me, claiming that the Bible is the only word of God is ridiculous. God is the God of the whole world. Not just that little piece of the Middle East. The books of the Bible even make reference to other scripture, which you don't have. Since nearly all the books in the Bible are unique, it stands to reason that those missing books contain unique writings from the prophets, you don't know what teachings are missing.

Claiming additional writings were by the SAME God - even when they contradict the writings that believers have received ever since they came to be - sounds MORE ridiculous, to me. I trust that God is powerful enough to preserve His word against any and every threat man can come up with INCLUDING the idea that some essential writings were suppressed and only discovered nearly two thousand years later. Sorry, but that sounds like a pretty flimsy reason to accept these extra-Biblical books. We have the whole counsel of God and the presence of the Holy Spirit to lead us into all truth.

After our likeness and our image is pretty clear. Which is why Jesus was born a man and not half man and half chipmunk. Man looks like God the Father as does Jesus.

I don't think this inane comment deserves a response. I already told you I won't accept any other so-called scripture so bullying or mocking won't do it either.

How can you claim to know God when you can't even describe what He looks like? It would be more appropriate to say you know "of" Him. If He is so vague and beyond our understanding then we can't actually know Him. Would a Father want His children to NOT understand Him? But I know that's not the case.

I know what God has revealed about Himself in the Bible and as the Holy Spirit has taught me throughout my forty-five year personal relationship with Him. You couldn't possibly know what is in my heart nor what God has or has not done to help me understand Him. Jesus told us about the Father:

"But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers. "God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth." (John 4:23-24)

Do you worship God as a spirit and within your spirit in truth or must you bring Him down to your level in order to do so? I hate to break it to you, but you will NEVER be god. Be grateful to be His child. Gill's Exposition of the Bible says:

God is a spirit, and not a body, or a corporeal substance: the nature and essence of God is like a spirit, simple and uncompounded, not made up of parts; nor is it divisible; nor does it admit of any change and alteration. God, as a spirit, is immaterial, immortal, invisible, and an intelligent, willing, and active being; but differs from other spirits, in that he is not created, but an immense and infinite spirit, and an eternal one, which has neither beginning nor end: he is therefore a spirit by way of eminency, as well as effectively, he being the author and former of all spirits: whatever excellence is in them, must be ascribed to God in the highest manner; and whatever is imperfect in them, must be removed from him: and they that worship him; worship is due to him on account of his nature and perfections, both internal and external; with both the bodies and souls of men; and both private and public; in the closet, in the family, and in the church of God; as prayer, praise, attendance on the word and ordinances: must worship him in spirit and in truth; in the true and spiritual manner before described, which is suitable to his nature, and agreeably to his will.

[BlueMoose]

Finally, the translators state the purpose and plan of the present translation. They have not intended to make a new translation, but to make the best possible translation by improving upon previous ones. To do so they have, of course, carefully examined the original Hebrew and Greek since translation should only be done from the original tongues. Also, they did not work hastily, as did the translators of the Septuagint, who, according to legend, finished their work in only seventy-two days. The translators also availed themselves of commentaries and translations of the Scriptures in other languages. In their work they felt it was essen­tial to include marginal notes, despite the fact that some might feel such notes tend to undermine the authority of the Scriptures. These notes are essential since the translators confess that oftentimes they were unsure how a word or phrase should be translated. This is especially true in Hebrew, where there are a number of words which only occur once in Scripture, and even the Jews themselves are uncertain about their trans­lation. And so, as Augustine notes, a “variety of translations is profitable for finding out of the sense of the Scriptures.” Lastly, the translators ob­serve that, in spite of criticism from some quarters, they decided not to always translate the same Hebrew or Greek word with the same English word and have retained, over the objections of the Puritans, the old ec­clesiastical words like “baptism” instead of “washings.”

http://dbts.edu/blog/the-embarrassing-preface-to-the-king-james-version/

[boatbums]

And all those people that have lived and died and never heard of Christ? Where do you put them?

Will not the God of all the earth do what is right? "For the LORD your God is the God of gods and the Lord of lords, the great, the mighty, and the awesome God who does not show partiality nor take a bribe. (Deut. 10:17).

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles. Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen. (Romans 1:18-25)

God is a rewarder of all those who diligently seek Him so there will be NO ONE who dies without having the chance to know the truth. Even before Jesus was born, there were people who knew and worshiped the one, true God and, just as we look back on the sacrifice Christ made for us through the grace of God, so they looked forward to the time when the Messiah would come ALSO by the grace of God.

You have no prophets or revelation that would tell you such a thing.

We have the revelation in the Bible that tells us all about when the angels were created, their purpose, their roles and what happened to those who rebelled against God. Angels aren't people, people don't become angels.

They have a form of godliness. A type of godliness, but it's not real. You can see it every where... no revelation today. They appear godly but they actually deny the power of God through their action and doctrine.

No doubt there are people that fit this prediction of the world today and we see examples of it pretty regularly on these religion threads. The form of godliness that Scripture talks about which is deadly is that which "denies the power thereof". I don't deny the power of the Holy Spirit in my life nor do I reject the grace of God that brings salvation by assuming that my good deeds merit my salvation. Those people weeping and gnashing their teeth will be those who thought belonging to a religion or going to church or being good or giving tithes, etc., were what brought them to godliness while they rejected the grace of God that He lavishes on us when we trust in Him. Faith is what pleases God - without it, NO ONE can please Him.

Back to a question I've asked several times now; did God choose the list of books that are that are currently available in the Bible to be in the Bible?

And I've already answered this several times now. Maybe if you read what I wrote instead of skipping to the parts you want to haggle over repeatedly, you wouldn't keep asking it. What are you expecting to hear that I'm not saying?

[boatbums]

????

Did I give the impression that I'm a King James-only advocate?

[StormPrepper]

"God is a rewarder of all those who diligently seek Him so there will be NO ONE who dies without having the chance to know the truth. Even before Jesus was born, there were people who knew and worshiped the one, true God and, just as we look back on the sacrifice Christ made for us through the grace of God, so they looked forward to the time when the Messiah would come ALSO by the grace of God."

There have been millions of people that have died inside communist countries that never had the chance to hear the truth. Through out all ages there have been people, that through no fault of their own, were born into a circumstance where hearing or worshiping God was not possible. Therefore, through no fault of their own they were not able to seek God.

Amos 8:
11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord:

12 And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the Lord, and shall not find it.

Amos prophesies about a time when the gospel is not found any where on the earth. People don't have the word of God, what happens to them?

"Angels aren't people, people don't become angels."

Your logic is flawed. Didn't Jesus come to earth and take up a body of flesh and bone and ascend into heaven? So Jesus proves that a heavenly being can come to earth, change, and still be a heavenly being. So it is with the Angels. Angels are messages and servants of God. It's a title not a species. A person can be a servant and messenger of God, come to earth, take up a body and return to heaven and still be a servant and messenger.

"I don't deny the power of the Holy Spirit in my life nor do I reject the grace of God that brings salvation by assuming that my good deeds merit my salvation."

But you've stated several times that you don't believe God speaks to man directly anymore. You've stated that you don't believe there can be anymore scripture. That's denying the power of God.

This reminds me of the story of the people in Moses' time. Moses held up a staff and anyone who looked at the staff would be healed. Many of the people refused to even look at the staff. Probably because they could not have faith in something so simple. Or maybe they were afraid of having the power of God touch them so dramatically... or maybe some were afraid that if they looked and nothing happened, what that would mean.

"Faith is what pleases God - without it, NO ONE can please Him."

But... God measures your faith by your works not your words. It is by what we do that justifies before God our claims of faith in Jesus. That's straight out of the NT. And that's why so many who claim faith on Jesus will be cast out as spoken of in Luke 13.

"What are you expecting to hear that I'm not saying?"

How about a simple yes or no.

[StormPrepper]

"Since we BOTH say we accept the Bible as the word of God and authoritative..."

I accept the Bible as having some authority. Not all. And the principles taught in the Bible but be weighed against all scripture and all sources including modern prophets. This guards against error.

"then ALL our discussion should center around what we both hold as God-breated truth."

Yes but our personal interpretations are not God breathed and are prone to error. Therefore, limiting the things of God will undoubtedly produce error.

"That your standards for determining what is or isn't directly from God allows you to accept your religion's founders as also inspired by God doesn't mean I also have to accept them."

The Holy Spirit told me they were authorized and recognized by God to found His Church.

If I don't believe and in fact reject those men at the Council of Nicea as being inspired by God how can I possibly accept what grew from their teachings? Didn't the Lord say that an evil seed cannot grow good fruit?

History alone shows that Amos 8 was fulfilled.

"...as also inspired by God doesn't mean I also have to accept them."

True, you have the freedom of choice. /shrug.

"So, no, you cannot prove God the Father was once a man before He was God."

No one can prove anything to another person if the other person isn't willing to accept it no matter the proof. Your unwillingness to be convinced has bearing on whether or not something is true.

"I trust that God is powerful enough to preserve His word against any and every threat man can come up with INCLUDING the idea that some essential writings were suppressed and only discovered nearly two thousand years later."

But you're assuming that just because He has the power to do so, He will do so. God gives us the freedom to reject Him and He doesn't interfere with that freedom.

God had the power to see the future and knew the books in the Bible would be preserved and the state it would be in. He has the power to instruct a real prophet to collect the writings of the prophets that we would need to find the truth and combat the error of false doctrines.

"Sorry, but that sounds like a pretty flimsy reason to accept these extra-Biblical books."

I accept them because they actually teach truth. They add to my knowledge of God, His laws, His commandments, an actual path of how to be saved into the kingdom of Heaven.

"or must you bring Him down to your level in order to do so?"

And we get to the crux of the problem, self loathing. Do you not know that God has promise to elevate the faithful? He uses words like exaltation. To exalt. It's not lowering God by no means. It's accepting the gift of God to be lifted up. To be crowned with glory. A joint-heir with Christ. To be given a crown. This is the very promise of God.

Can you tell me why you think the passages below are not spoken by the Lord?

9 And I do this that I may prove unto many that I am the same yesterday, today, and forever; and that I speak forth my words according to mine own pleasure. And because that I have spoken one word ye need not suppose that I cannot speak another; for my work is not yet finished; neither shall it be until the end of man, neither from that time henceforth and forever.

10 Wherefore, because that ye have a Bible ye need not suppose that it contains all my words; neither need ye suppose that I have not caused more to be written.

11 For I command all men, both in the east and in the west, and in the north, and in the south, and in the islands of the sea, that they shall write the words which I speak unto them; for out of the books which shall be written I will judge the world, every man according to their works, according to that which is written.

[boatbums]

There have been millions of people that have died inside communist countries that never had the chance to hear the truth. Through out all ages there have been people, that through no fault of their own, were born into a circumstance where hearing or worshiping God was not possible. Therefore, through no fault of their own they were not able to seek God.

Look who's limiting God now. Scripture says that ALL of creation screams that there is a Creator and that people exchange the truth for a lie. If God says He is a rewarder of all those who diligently seek Him and that He WILL be found when we search for Him with all our hearts, then I'm gonna believe Him over a false religion that teaches souls can be saved AFTER they die by proxy baptism and/or spirit missionaries. Nowhere in the Bible is that sort of folly taught.

"Angels aren't people, people don't become angels."

Your logic is flawed. Didn't Jesus come to earth and take up a body of flesh and bone and ascend into heaven? So Jesus proves that a heavenly being can come to earth, change, and still be a heavenly being. So it is with the Angels. Angels are messages and servants of God. It's a title not a species. A person can be a servant and messenger of God, come to earth, take up a body and return to heaven and still be a servant and messenger.

Your theology is flawed - and your logic isn't much better. Jesus is Almighty God incarnate - in the flesh - and He was born as a baby to a virgin (a prophetic miracle) taking on human flesh, blood and bones so that He could be the perfect sacrifice for our atonement. Jesus is more than a "heavenly being", He is GOD - the Creator of all beings - heavenly or earthly - as well as the entire universe. Without Jesus nothing was made that was made. Angels ARE God's messengers, His servants, but they were NEVER human beings and vice versa. Two separate created beings - angels and humans. Just because angels and humans can sometimes be used the same by the God doesn't mean they are the same beings.

But you've stated several times that you don't believe God speaks to man directly anymore. You've stated that you don't believe there can be anymore scripture. That's denying the power of God.

Don't put words in my mouth, please. God no longer reveals new truths to man - especially not any that would contradict those things He HAS already revealed. You said many times that you believe there CAN be more "Scripture" - actual God-breathed, carried along by the Holy Spirit Divine and sacred Scripture - and you point to the writings from Mormonism's founder and subsequent "prophets". You claim that the Holy Spirit "told" you they were all from Almighty God. I don't claim to be an expert at your religion, but from the things I HAVE read from it, it falls far short of the caliber that believers have come to expect from Christianity's universally recognized Scripture - the Holy Spirit has told me that they are bogus. You can believe what you want, but there is NOTHING you have that I need or want. My faith is firmly established in Jesus Christ and He is my rock, my foundation.

But... God measures your faith by your works not your words. It is by what we do that justifies before God our claims of faith in Jesus. That's straight out of the NT. And that's why so many who claim faith on Jesus will be cast out as spoken of in Luke 13.

Wrong! Man looks on the outside, God looks on the heart:

Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. (Romans 3:19-28)

Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. (Galatians 2:16)

I've got PLENTY more if you are interested in the truth of the gospel of the grace of God.

[Elsie]

I accept the Bible as having some authority. Not all.

Of course!

Wherever Mormonism and Christianity collide; the BIBLe 'authority' flies out the window.

We totally expect this.

[StormPrepper]

"If God says He is a rewarder of all those who diligently seek Him and that He WILL be found when we search for Him with all our hearts,"

Are you saying that anyone that didn't hear of God in this life is going to hell? Please clarify.

"then I'm gonna believe Him over a false religion that teaches souls"

In 1838, the Prophet Joseph Smith was asked, "Wherein do you differ from other sects?" He answered by saying, "In that we believe the Bible, and all the other sects profess to believe their interpretations of the Bible and their creeds."

That's very profound and very true.

"...then I'm gonna believe Him over a false religion that teaches souls can be saved AFTER they die by proxy baptism and/or spirit missionaries.

1 Peter 3: 19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

After Jesus died and before the resurrection, He went to the spirit world and taught the people there. And in 4:6 it is described why.

1 Peter 4:
6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

The gospel was/is preached to the dead so that they can have a fair chance of accepting it. Because God is fair and just.

"Wrong! Man looks on the outside, God looks on the heart:"

God looks at both.

John 9:
4 I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.

Jesus said that even He is commanded to do works.

James 2:17
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

There is no faith with out works.

Revelation 20:12
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Every person is judged by their works.

Titus 2:7
7 In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine shewing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity,

Good works prove we have faith. Doing the exact works of that Jesus commands proves that we have faith in Him.

Baptism for the dead is in the top three works God has given us. As it is shown in Titus, a pattern of good works must be shown. When the books are opened and your life is judged, can you say you did the work for your dead that the Lord has commanded you to do?

1 Cor 15:
29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

There was a false belief of some of the Jews at that time that there was no resurrection. Paul mentions the doctrine baptism for the dead while trying to correct this false doctrine which was being taught at the Church in Corinth.

They did it because Jesus taught them to. They were Jesus' true Church. We do it because Jesus taught us to. Because we are Jesus' true Church.

Malachi 4:
5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord:

6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

This prophesy is about genealogy work. Turning our hearts to our ancestors.

The prophet Elijah has already returned.

"Elijah appeared to Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery in the Kirtland Temple.
Joseph Smith described the appearance of the ancient prophet Elijah to him and Oliver Cowdery on April 3, 1836, in the Kirtland Temple, later recorded in Doctrine and Covenants 110:13–16: “Another great and glorious vision burst upon us; for Elijah the prophet, who was taken to heaven without tasting death, stood before us, and said:"

I don't see why you don't just throw out the Holy Bible and replace it with a Holy Index Card. It would just have one line on it, "Believe Jesus is Lord and you'll be saved!"

I think that would simplify your whole argument and totally give you deniability for all the writings that cause confusion. The HIC. I won't even copyright it. You can claim all the credit.

The rest of the Bible only helps us Mormons. Like 1 Cor 15:40-41. Modern "Christianity" makes no reference to it. Mainly because they don't know anything about it. We Mormons talk about it all the time. It's central to the Lord's plan of salvation. And the Lord has revealed a ton about the different glories to the latter-day prophets.

The HIC is the perfect way to dismiss all of that stuff. I bet you could make a lot of money off something like that to. So see... I'm helping you out.

It'll make the evangelical argument so much easier to swallow.... well, right up till the judgment anyways.

[boatbums]

Are you saying that anyone that didn't hear of God in this life is going to hell? Please clarify.

I'm saying that we cannot limit God and, since He says that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him, He WILL be found no matter who or what stands in the way. Nobody will be in hell who never had a chance to learn the truth. How they reacted to the light God gave, determines how much more light they are given. Do you believe living in a Communist and atheistic country can prevent a sincere seeker of God from hearing the truth? Think back on Abraham, who lived in a polytheistic society, yet God was found by him because Abram sought for Him.

In 1838, the Prophet Joseph Smith was asked, "Wherein do you differ from other sects?" He answered by saying, "In that we believe the Bible, and all the other sects profess to believe their interpretations of the Bible and their creeds." That's very profound and very true.

It's incredibly stupid and false. Smith set out to reform the Bible into his own perverted interpretation of the gospel and the one he preached is accursed because it is NOT the one Paul delivered through the Holy Spirit. JS was a con man, horn dog who broke every commandment God ever gave. Following after him is a sure way to join him in hell.

1 Peter 3: 19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; After Jesus died and before the resurrection, He went to the spirit world and taught the people there. And in 4:6 it is described why. 1 Peter 4: 6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. The gospel was/is preached to the dead so that they can have a fair chance of accepting it. Because God is fair and just.

The JS version may teach you that but what that Scripture is talking about is the souls of those in paradise before the death of Jesus and that, when he died, he lead them into heaven. By His sacrifice, heaven was now opened to all believers. In fact, Ephesians 4:7-16 says this:

But to each one of us grace has been given as Christ apportioned it. This is why it says:

“When he ascended on high, he took many captives and gave gifts to his people.”

(What does “he ascended” mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions? He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.) So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ. Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of people in their deceitful scheming. Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will grow to become in every respect the mature body of him who is the head, that is, Christ. From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work.

So, not only did Christ preach to the souls He was leading up to heaven - and they were ALREADY believers and saved - He also gave gifts to those here on earth - the gifts of the Holy Spirit so that He would equip his people for works of service to build up the Body of Christ. God IS fair AND merciful and He never turns anyone away who earnestly seeks Him. It is appointed unto man ONCE to die and after this the judgment. You don't get a "second chance" to believe once you've died. That's just more of JS's accursed gospel.

Good works prove we have faith. Doing the exact works of that Jesus commands proves that we have faith in Him.

Yes, our outward acts demonstrate an inward change, A genuine rebirth in Christ will result in a life that seeks to please God in all we do. But, our works are not what saves us - it is by the grace of God and NOT by our works, because NO ONE may boast before God and be able to claim they earned or merited their salvation. Once you understand grace, you will start to understand the place of good works in our lives.

Baptism for the dead is in the top three works God has given us. As it is shown in Titus, a pattern of good works must be shown. When the books are opened and your life is judged, can you say you did the work for your dead that the Lord has commanded you to do?

More JS accursed gospel. There is no "baptism for the dead". What Paul was talking about was NOT some new sacrament that Christians were expected to do but one of many wild practices of various religions who thought they could help a dead loved one by being a proxy or stand in for them in some kind of sacramental action. Paul was talking about the resurrection here and how futile EVEN that kind of a thing would be if there was no resurrection of the dead. What Mormonism did is invent a new sacramental practice of baptisms for dead people they didn't even KNOW or who NEVER showed any intention of following Christ in baptism. Did Paul or any of the Apostles go back and address this practice and spell it how how it should be done for Christians? NO. If anything, it was a casual mention of a practice some people did which would be pointless if no one got a resurrection body. It's not uncommon at all for cults to do this kind of thing - take a snippet of a verse and try to build a whole new MANDATORY religion around it. Sorry, but I don't need a new religion, I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that HE is able to guard what I have entrusted to him until the day of his return.

[boatbums]

This prophesy is about genealogy work. Turning our hearts to our ancestors. The prophet Elijah has already returned. "Elijah appeared to Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery in the Kirtland Temple. Joseph Smith described the appearance of the ancient prophet Elijah to him and Oliver Cowdery on April 3, 1836, in the Kirtland Temple, later recorded in Doctrine and Covenants 110:13–16: “Another great and glorious vision burst upon us; for Elijah the prophet, who was taken to heaven without tasting death, stood before us, and said:"

I have a family member who says he IS Elijah the Prophet, but he is currently in a federal psychiatric facility and may be for some time. I wouldn't put a lot of stock in what "people" say they saw or heard. Just sayin'.

[Elsie]

Still babbling on, I see... Ignoring your DAMNATION that BY said was coming your way. (#173) I wish that I had nerves of steel like that.

[Elsie]

Joseph Smith described the appearance of the ancient prophet Elijah to him and Oliver Cowdery on April 3, 1836, in the Kirtland Temple, later recorded in Doctrine and Covenants 110:13–16: “Another great and glorious vision burst upon us; for Elijah the prophet, who was taken to heaven without tasting death, stood before us, and said:"

I see no evidence at all that this is NOT a demon from HELL being spoken of!

Joseph didn't follow his OWN method of detecting deception!!!

---

The Doctrine and Covenants

 Section 129

 

Instructions given by Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Nauvoo, Illinois, 9 February 1843, making known three grand keys by which the correct nature of ministering angels and spirits may be distinguished (see History of the Church, 5:267).

1–3, There are both resurrected and spirit bodies in heaven; 4–9, Keys are given whereby messengers from beyond the veil may be identified.

---

 1 There are two kinds of beings in ^aheaven, namely: ^bAngels, who are ^cresurrected personages, having ^dbodies of flesh and bones—

 2 For instance, Jesus said: Handle me and see, for a spirit hath not ^aflesh and bones, as ye see me have.

 3 Secondly: the ^aspirits of ^bjust men made ^cperfect, they who are not resurrected, but inherit the same glory.

 4 When a messenger comes saying he has a message from God, offer him your hand and request him to shake hands with you.

 5 If he be an angel he will do so, and you will feel his hand.

 6 If he be the spirit of a just man made perfect he will come in his glory; for that is the only way he can appear—

 7 Ask him to shake hands with you, but he will not move, because it is contrary to the ^aorder of heaven for a just man to ^bdeceive; but he will still deliver his message.

 8 If it be the ^adevil as an angel of light, when you ask him to shake hands he will offer you his hand, and you will not ^bfeel anything; you may therefore detect him.

 9 These are three grand ^akeys whereby you may know whether any administration is from God

[StormPrepper]

"Do you believe living in a Communist and atheistic country can prevent a sincere seeker of God from hearing the truth?"

Yes. What you're describing is theory-craft and a type of extremism. If order for your point to be proven you have to maintain that no one through out time has never been denied access to the teachings of God if they wanted it.

The phrase "you don't know what you don't know" is true in the is case. I have met people even in the US that knew nothing about God. They had never heard of simple terms like "revelation" before. But they became interested after hearing about God.

What about even the Romans during the time Christ? They were purposefully kept from knowing the truth about Christ. It wasn't their fault, God kept it from them for a reason. But they still needed to have their fair chance of hearing the truth.

How much more isolated have people been in 3rd world countries?

The point is, I've come across many evangelicals in the past that try this line of reasoning. They don't have a viable answer for it, so they make up this unrealistic explanation and call it good.

Me: What about people that lived and died without ever hearing about Christ?
Evangelicals: Nobody in the whole history of the world has ever not had the chance to hear about Christ ....who wanted it!

It's unrealistic and quite frankly it's down right silly. Mainly because I can compare this evangelical theory with the real world. You can't, because it doesn't match up. It doesn't work. Any rational person can see that.

"It's incredibly stupid and false."

The irony.

"Smith set out to reform the Bible into his own perverted interpretation of the gospel and the one he preached is accursed because it is NOT the one Paul delivered through the Holy Spirit. JS was a con man, horn dog who broke every commandment God ever gave. Following after him is a sure way to join him in hell."

"and all the other sects profess to believe their interpretations of the Bible and their creeds." And let me add, if anyone refuses to accept their interpretations they will condemn you to hell. (And they will say mean things about you using hyperbolic language.)

"Scripture is talking about is the souls of those in paradise before the death of Jesus and that, when he died, he lead them into heaven."

This is the EWC (Evangelical Wash Cycle) at work. The scripture is very clear on what's going on here and you can't get around it. You can spin it all you want but the text is plain.

1 Pet 4:
...this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead,

1 Pet 3:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

These were the people who died in the great flood. And Christ went and preached (taught) them in the spirit world. Noah was one man, he could not have taught everyone in the world. Therefore, there were people who never heard the gospel and Jesus taught them after they died. They have a fair chance to accept or reject Him.

He preached to the dead the same way He preached to the living and for the same purpose. Simple. Matches the text. Makes perfect sense. Good to go.

But "Christianity" sadly, won't accept that doctrine. Because it opens a can of worms doesn't it? No matter how true it looks, sounds, or how much the Spirit tells them its true, if they accept that doctrine, they have to accept the one who brought it.

The Evangelical doctrine, or I should say "Christianity" as a whole is fragile. It's actually a very small sphere of knowledge and shrinking.

A perfect example is "works". It used to be "works" was essential. Then the question arose, well what works? So then it quickly became "works don't matter!" Works is one of the most talked about subjects in the New Testament. But because it begs a question that "Christianity" can't answer, they deny it has any meaning at all; works don't matter!

God expands knowledge He doesn't limit it.

"But, our works are not what saves us - it is by the grace of God and NOT"

And we've never said anything different. However, in order to be given that grace, certain things are required of us by Jesus.

"What Paul was talking about was NOT some new sacrament that Christians were expected to do but one of many wild practices"

I've seen the Evangelical explanation of Baptism for the dead morph over the years. Many years ago, they had no explanation for it. Then someone floated the idea in the early 90's that because Paul was correcting doctrine, that it had a negative meaning. The first person I ever saw say this was Robert McKay from Utah Mission Inc. (Professional anti-mormon group funded by the SBC)

Then over the years it morphed into "no, this was a practice of some of the cults in the area and Paul is telling them to stop".

I can understand why though. "Christianity" doesn't know anything about it and it's disconcerting that Paul is shown to be talking about it. So here's just another "It doesn't matter!" moment.

Paul isn't condemning the practice of Baptism for the dead, he's using it as evidence of the resurrection.

"Did Paul or any of the Apostles go back and address this practice and spell it how how it should be done for Christians? NO."

This kind of thinking is so strange. There was no Bible when the apostles were writing these things. You don't know if they spelled it out some where or not. John has said that there were important things that he DIDN'T write down. What if the 3rd letter to Corinth spelled it out.

Jesus taught face to face and so did the Apostles. He taught from the scriptures from time to time. But His doctrine was given from Him directly to the people. It wasn't written down and then delivered to the people. So you don't know what you don't know.

FYI, just because I am baptized for someone that's dead, doesn't mean they are baptized. They still have the right to accept or reject the baptism done for them. The commandment is do it for everyone, so they at least have the chance. That's the way Heavenly Father set up the plan of salvation. This was the plan from the start.

[Elsie]

 

 

[greyfoxx39]

The Evangelical doctrine, or I should say "Christianity" as a whole is fragile. It's actually a very small sphere of knowledge and shrinking.

Dream on. This is NOT a message that will meet with favor on FreeRepublic.

BTW, if this is the mormon stance, WHY do you all keep insisting that you are "Christians"?

[svcw]

So when I die

(according to mormonISM)

I get a second chance but when you die

(with out Christ)

you just go to hell.

If Christianity is so flawed as stated in your post, why do you (mormons) insist they are Christians?

[colorcountry]

The Bible says:(Romans 2:12-16)

12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.