Boo Hoo...
Posted on 11/30/2013 2:52:50 PM PST by Ripliancum
An ecumenical group of religious historians and other scholars will convene at the University of Notre Dame’s McKenna Hall on Dec. 5-6 (Thursday-Friday) for a conference titled “Catholics and Mormons: A New Dialogue.”
The conference will explore relationships among Catholics and Mormons as their churches are increasingly allied in common social, political and relief efforts. Its themes will include “The Lay of the Land: Contemporary Mormonism and Catholicism,” “Catholicism and Mormonism in Historical Context,” “Revelation: Scriptures, Traditions, and Authoritative Teachings” and “Theologies of Encounter, Unity, and Diversity.”
(Excerpt) Read more at news.nd.edu ...
Boo Hoo...
Well; ain't YOU special!
He said, smugly, without a SHRED of proof.
Will you continue to bluster and blab and IGNORE your own 'prophet'??
Who would read it?
You may not have agreed with my answer, but I DID answer you. To refresh your memory, here is what you asked:
I would like to ask you a question. Did God compile the Bible? Not the writings in the Bible, but the list of writings contained in the Bible. In other words, did God choose which writings would be in the Bible?
You were referring to the "canon" of Scripture. My answer explained my views about that canon. From the very first century, Christians had sacred Scripture - both from the prophets of the Lord prior to Christ's birth as well as those from the Apostles of Jesus Christ and their select disciples who spoke as they were "carried along by the Holy Spirit". Christians from the first century on recognized and received God's word because the Holy Spirit led them to that truth. Whatever these writings are that you claim the early Christians omitted from the canon (which is just another word for "rule of the faith"), they were NOT accepted as God-breathed Scripture because ALL Scripture is useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.(2 Timothy 3:16,17). The Apostles would not have neglected to declare the whole counsel of God.
So, yes, God's hand was working through the Apostles, disciples and early believers to receive those writings that were to be believed and obeyed as FROM God and it is why we can know any later subsequent writings, which may also claim to be from Almighty God, are to be rejected - especially those that contradict any of the words of the Bible. Those passages I gave you from Deuteronomy concerning the qualifications for "prophets of the Lord" still stand. Some guy, eighteen hundred years later cannot dig up some long, lost writings and claim they were originally part of the Bible and that God was powerless to preserve His word for his chosen for all time. That's not how God works.
"The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our sons forever, that we may observe all the words of this law." (Deuteronomy 29:29)
“That’s not how God works.” Ah, but it IS how the god of Mormonism works, as fabled by Joseph Smith and swallowed even today, hook, line, and sinker, like fish in a barrel, a Moroni barrel.
Nope...they were just as wrong and misled as your Brigham Young followers were at the Mountain Meadows Massacre. (I warned you before about throwing those stones from glass houses.)
The followers of God have always gone to a prophet for understanding and clarification of scripture. "Christianity" has no prophets. Which is why they can't agree on something as simple as baptism.
God SPOKE to His people through prophets and they WROTE down their revelation in a form that could be preserved long after the prophets had all died. Sacred Scripture is part of God's plan and the Holy Spirit leads His own into all truth. We don't need a "prophet" today to tell us what Scripture means because we HAVE the Holy Spirit. Disagreements over certain issues doesn't mean that what God gave us is insufficient, just that some people want to hold onto their own understanding and won't yield to God's leading. It doesn't mean the truth isn't there waiting for them. But there are some points where there is liberty and not everything is cut and dried for every person. On the MAJOR things - the tenets that comprise what Christianity IS - there is a genuine unity, even across denominational lines.
And I'm supposed to believe their private scripture interpretations have some special truth? It's no different than the religious people at the time of Jesus. They studied their scriptures but couldn't see that Jesus was the Christ even though He was standing right in front of them. They didn't consult the prophets or God.
Scripture interprets Scripture. Words, in context, mean what they say - these are general rules for Biblical Hermeneutics, the process of Biblical interpretation.
Actually, it was a clear and straightforward answer that included Holy Scripture. I know it and, if you don't, you alone can figure out the implications for why you can't or won't."
I won't because that teaching is wrong. Teach a correct principle and I'll agree with you.
You will have to use the Bible to convince me that I am wrong and you are right about Jesus and His intrinsic sinlessness. I reject the Mormon version of the Bible as well as your other "scripture". You claim to believe the Bible, I believe the Bible, let's discuss the point using only the Bible since we can both agree with its authority, deal?
"Nowhere in the Bible can you point to that says this."
I get this from the prophets. However, it's all over the Bible. It's pretty simple actually. It makes sense that God's people know Him. He's not a mystery to Latter-day Saints because He's revealed the truth to us.
See above. Your "prophets" as well as your "revealed truth" are unacceptable in authority to me and I stand by my assertion that you will find NO PLACE in the Bible where God the Father had a flesh and bone body or was once a man.
"Now He does. But prior to his incarnation, he didn't."
True. We can agree on something. Now, does a child grow up to be like their parent?
Sometimes, but not always. Jesus, the man, was ALWAYS God and he took on human flesh to be our redeemer.
"Jesus was sinless from all eternity, having a human nature did not remove that part of his attributes. The difference between us and Jesus is that we cannot be sinless, we have all sinned and fall short of God's perfection"
Here's where we part. How could Jesus be tempted if He didn't have the choice to choose good or evil? Being a "son of the morning", being a person of authority in heaven, being in the very presence of God the Father didn't remove Lucifer's agency to choose.
Jesus and Lucifer are not "brothers". Lucifer was a created being, an angel, who chose to rebel against God and was cast out of heaven. Jesus is the eternal Son of God, with the Father from all time, and His sinlessness was because of His Divine nature. I can show you these teachings all throughout Scripture (and I have). If you reject them, it is on your own head.
Jesus had the choice, He never would have, but He did have the choice to choose evil. This is why God the Father spoke out of Heaven when Jesus was baptized, "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." He was pleased because Jesus was following the commandments perfectly. (Of course to testify publicly that this was His Son also)
Why do you say "he never would have" chosen evil? If you really believe he had a choice - the same choice you say WE have - then explain why you said that?
"Yes, he did because he was GOD"
He lead a sinless life because He chose to. There is a lot more to it than that...but I'm not going to go there at this time. Being part God gave Him the power over death. To die only when He choose to. When He bled at every pour in Gethsemane, it would have killed a mortal man. Being scourged and stabbed and hung on the cross would have killed a mortal man... but Jesus didn't die until He chose to, after He has finished His final task on the cross.
He led a sinless life because he was/is Almighty God incarnate. He suffered, bled and died for our sins at the cross and then arose for our justification. Jesus said, "No one can take my life from me. I sacrifice it voluntarily. For I have the authority to lay it down when I want to and also to take it up again. For this is what my Father has commanded." (John 10:18)
"The two witnesses during the Tribulation will not be speaking to me - though I already believe what they will be saying - as I will already have been taken up in the Rapture."
Begs the question, what are two righteous men doing on the earth if the rapture has already happened?
They are the two witnesses sent by God to preach the gospel to those who were left behind after the Rapture and to the Jews especially during the Tribulation. They will warn the entire world of the coming great and terrible day of the Lord when God will judge the world.
No, that's another heresy of modern "Christianity". Well I should say part of "Christianity". There's a side that disagrees with that as well. If you survive the destruction that's going on, you'll be here.
I don't deny there is disagreement about the Rapture, but I guess we'll see who is right when it happens. If you are a believer in Jesus Christ as Savior then you will still be taken up whether or not you believe in a Rapture. The Bride of Christ is not going to endure the Tribulation - the time of "Jacob's Trouble" (see Jeremiah 30). We will be with the Bridegroom (Christ) at the Marriage Supper of the Lamb.
These two prophets have stood before God. They speak the truth directly from God. What if, they teach the law of baptism, in a way that God wants it. In a way that you can't verify in your Bible. By what you've said already, you'll discredit them immediately.
They will be preaching Jesus the Messiah and the Gospel of the grace of God and His coming terrible judgment upon the whole earth for the wickedness and abominations of its inhabitants. I have no fear of what these witnesses will say because I am already a blood-bought, born again child of Almighty God, heir and joint-heir with Jesus Christ. There is nothing that I believe that can't be verified in the word of God. It sounds as if it will be you and your fellow Mormons will be the ones facing God and explaining in to Him why you rejected the truth He gave you.
Will you come on this forum and blast them as false prophets?
Nope! Won't be here. Won't need to.
I already told you that the horrible actions of sinful men - even if they do these acts under the impression that they are fighting FOR God - does not justify them nor, however, does it necessarily disprove the faith they say they are following. We know radical Muslims do things that are horrific and many other Muslims disapprove of their actions insisting that Islam is a "religion of peace". Can we look at their scriptures and determine which side is correct?
I can completely disapprove of the actions the Roman Catholic Church took during the Inquisitions and other persecutions they did under the false assumption that they were defending the faith against heretics. Even some Protestants did some of the same things and they were BOTH wrong. The truth of the gospel doesn't need the force of the sword of men to be preserved as God is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. Man will NEVER be able to fight against God - His will and purpose will not be thwarted.
The Holy Spirit testifies of truth and can teach, true. But, who are you to say you don't need a prophet? God sends His servants and you reject them outright because you have your Bible? The scriptures only get you so far. It's the servants of God that have the authority to act in His name. The Lord didn't send a herd of Bibles in to try to recover Jerusalem. He sent prophets.
It seems that your definition of a "prophet" is different than mine. The Prophets God used to reveal the truth to mankind were hand selected and His words were relayed through them. Often, the people rejected them, persecuted them and killed them, and they answered to God for their actions. These "holy men of God" spoke as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit and EVERY word they spoke was directly from God. However, there came a time where there were no longer prophets in the land. We read in Lamentations, Zechariah, 2 Chronicles and other books that God removed His prophets from among the people because of their disobedience. There weren't anymore until Christ came to earth and God again breathed His word to selected people who, in turn, wrote down God's truth - just as they did in the time before Christ - which was copied and disbursed throughout the local churches.
If, instead of prophets, who specifically received divine revelation and communicated God's word to His people, you are speaking of those people who God has given the gift of "prophecy", then we are speaking of two different kinds of prophets. There were indeed believers in the churches who God used to speak forth the truth on what God had ALREADY revealed. They expounded upon and taught the believers to grow in grace, in their faith and in their knowledge of the truth. They did not reveal new truths or come up with novel interpretations of God's truth. They were led by the Holy Spirit - and their disciples also - to teach what God desired all Christians to know. One things that separated them from the numerous false prophets that existed even back then was the Holy Scriptures. They remained the authority by which all truth claims were, and are, to be measured.
These people the Lord is referring to, call Him Lord. They are believers and He casts them out at the judgement. Notice it doesn't say anything about a Bible or scriptures as the reason they will be cast out. The cause of their weeping and gnashing of teeth is seeing all the prophets. The ones they rejected.
Why presume they are "believers"? Jesus, when speaking about those false prophets who would come and to try and deceive His sheep, said:
Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!
If you notice, He says He NEVER knew them. Not that they were once His sheep but they strayed, but they were NEVER His sheep. We enter through the narrow gate - which is faith in Jesus Christ as Savior. The gate is NOT going to be Joseph Smith, Jr., or Mohammad, a Pope, Krishna, Buddha, or any prophet.
A false doctrine is a false doctrine. A couple centuries ago people were being slaughtered by the tens of thousands, tortured to death, over infant baptism. The only reason they stopped killing each other was because genocide became unpopular.
You're throwing your own "lent balls" now? The way we can know false doctrines or false prophets is by comparing them to God's holy word. It is our touchstone, our authority and rule of faith.
Au contraire, mon frere! When I was sixteen years old, I was handed a Bible and told to read John 10:27-30. It said:
"My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.”
Through the illumination of the Holy Spirit - and because I was sincerely seeking to know the truth - a light came on in my heart and I understood the gospel for the first time. I received Jesus Christ as my Savior and have been His follower ever since. So, I reject your presumptuous assertion that God's word will "never convince" me. It DID because of the Holy Spirit. Someone else could read that same passage and it won't mean anything to them. God wants a sincere and diligent seeking that we do with all our hearts. When I suggested you prove your doctrine about God the Father from God's word, I meant it. It stands to reason that if you really believe its authority as do I then we could reason from the same resource. I suspect you already know that the Bible never speaks of the Father as once being a man. In fact, I suspect you know MOST of what divides Mormonism from classic Christianity is not on your side when we use the Bible as our sole authority.
1. We are made in the image of God. So, in shape we look like God
In "shape"? Why not in God's image as Father, Son and Spirit, we are body, soul and spirit? We are triune in nature as is God.
2. John 5:19 19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
So the Son is only doing what He's seen His Father do first. You mean like take His body up on the third day and ascend into heaven?
Jesus does what is His nature. He is Almighty God in the flesh. We should take His explanations as to His nature, purpose and plan with the understanding that He is speaking of a mystery - one that is INFINITE - and putting it in terms that men can comprehend. God the Father was NEVER a man. He always was and always will be - the I AM - the self-existent one. No god created Him, there ARE no other gods. Because God already revealed this truth, we can know this and rely upon the truth when false prophets try to sneak in and deceive the flock.
3. Acts 7:56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
When Stephen looked into heaven and saw God, he saw a person. Jesus was standing at His right hand.
He saw the glorified Jesus standing at the right hand of God, nothing says he saw the "body" of God the Father, did it? You're flailing.
4. John 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
God has a shape. Those who do not accept Jesus will not see or hear His Father.
You presume God's "shape" is a human one? God's form, shape or appearance no man has ever seen but that doesn't mean that when we are in heaven we will not "see" God.
5. John 14: he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
Jesus looks like His Father. The same would be true after the resurrection. Stephen testified that he saw Jesus standing the right hand of Heavenly Father.
You quote this Scripture but reject that Jesus is Almighty God in the flesh? In Bible college, we had memory verses in every class. Though it's been nearly forty years since I graduated, I STILL remember the entire first chapter of Hebrews. It is quite relevant to our discussion:
In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.
For to which of the angels did God ever say,
“You are my Son; today I have become your Father”?
Or again,
“I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”?
And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says,
“Let all God’s angels worship him.”
In speaking of the angels he says,
“He makes his angels spirits, and his servants flames of fire.”
But about the Son he says,
“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever; a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy.”
He also says,
“In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands. They will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment. You will roll them up like a robe; like a garment they will be changed. But you remain the same, and your years will never end.”
To which of the angels did God ever say, “Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet”? Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?
Read these verses and pray for a sincere heart to understand who Jesus is and what He has done for you.
When the Bride of Christ is taken up, there will still be people left behind - including the Jewish nation (those who have not received Jesus as Messiah) with whom God is not yet finished. We know from Revelation and other Scripture passages that, during the Tribulation, many more people will come to the knowledge of the truth and will be saved. The Two Witnesses as well as the 144,000 (12,000 from each of the twelve tribes of Israel) who have been anointed and ordained by God to be the ones to bring Israel to repentance and to speak to the world of the coming final judgments of God. So, contrary to your opinion, there WILL still be a chance for unbelievers to come to Christ. It won't be easy on them, but they can come to Him before they die. After someone dies, then it is too late to be saved. Once Christ comes back after the Tribulation to set up His thousand year reign on earth (the Millennium), ONLY the saved will go in. Some of the saved will be people who come out of the great tribulation and who have received Christ but didn't yet die.
Angels are people. Different titles, different responsibilities. But people. Jesus said His Father was also our Father. We share the same Father. Jesus is our brother and our God. Lucifer is no longer with us. At one time he was our brother too. Just as all the people that have ever lived, are alive, and will live on this earth are brothers/sisters.
LDS propaganda. Angels are not "people", never were, never will be. They are a separate class of created beings. Almighty God is ONLY the Father of the redeemed. His children are those that have been adopted into His family through faith. The unsaved are God's creation, it doesn't automatically make them His children. Jesus didn't die to redeem the fallen angels, either. They made their choice before we were created and have eternity to live with their choice.
Sorry, but you're not. Neither am I. -yet. Jesus was very clear on this. You have to endure to the end of your life obeying His commandments before you can be saved.
You don't understand grace, then. We can KNOW we HAVE eternal life through faith in Jesus Christ. It is not by our works that we are saved but by grace through faith. Genuine, born-again, children of God WILL endure till the end - that's the amazing grace of God. For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus. (Philippians 1:6)
1. You don't believe He has the power to bring about more scripture for you.
The canon of revealed Scripture closed two thousand years ago. It is our authority because it is God-breathed.
2. You don't believe He will send you His prophets.
Your "prophets" are rejected because they preach an accursed gospel.
3. You don't believe He will bring new revelation for you.
I don't believe the LDS "prophets" or any others outside of the Bible because God has given us the whole counsel of God in His word. I certainly won't accept anyone who contradicts the Bible.
4. You don't believe He has the power to judge you as you have already proclaimed yourself saved.
I claim my salvation because God told me I could. In fact, it is an assurance He desires for all those whom He has redeemed by His grace. We need not fear judgment because Christ took on our judgment for our sins and we are not condemned. Those who reject Christ are condemned already because they have not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
So you're a joint-heir with Almighty God? You will receive and equal reward as Jesus Himself. That's what joint-heir means. That means you'll become a (g)od. Well, that's the promise that God made, for the servant to receive equal to the master. Congrats on agreeing with me on that one. However, we're along way from getting to that point yet.
God has told us, "Seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence. For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust. (2 Peter 1:3,4) God disciplines us for our good, in order that we may share in his holiness and we are given the indwelling Holy Spirit as the "earnest of our inheritance" until we take up residence in heaven with our brothers and sisters in the Lord. It doesn't make us into "gods" - as there is ONLY one God and ever will be only ONE God. I don't think we are in agreement on that point. Sorry to disappoint you. I rejoice in my salvation because I know it is by the merciful grace of God that He saved me. It has changed me in every way and His plan for my life is being completed in me through that same grace. I'll be praying for you.
Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.
How can stating what a person has already said be mind reading ?
If the other poster said he believes a thing, then quote the poster - but do not say “you believe” in a paraphrase because that is mind reading and may lead to a flame war.
Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets,
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.
-- Hebrews 1:1-2
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