[boatbums]

Are you saying that anyone that didn't hear of God in this life is going to hell? Please clarify.

I'm saying that we cannot limit God and, since He says that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him, He WILL be found no matter who or what stands in the way. Nobody will be in hell who never had a chance to learn the truth. How they reacted to the light God gave, determines how much more light they are given. Do you believe living in a Communist and atheistic country can prevent a sincere seeker of God from hearing the truth? Think back on Abraham, who lived in a polytheistic society, yet God was found by him because Abram sought for Him.

In 1838, the Prophet Joseph Smith was asked, "Wherein do you differ from other sects?" He answered by saying, "In that we believe the Bible, and all the other sects profess to believe their interpretations of the Bible and their creeds." That's very profound and very true.

It's incredibly stupid and false. Smith set out to reform the Bible into his own perverted interpretation of the gospel and the one he preached is accursed because it is NOT the one Paul delivered through the Holy Spirit. JS was a con man, horn dog who broke every commandment God ever gave. Following after him is a sure way to join him in hell.

1 Peter 3: 19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; After Jesus died and before the resurrection, He went to the spirit world and taught the people there. And in 4:6 it is described why. 1 Peter 4: 6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. The gospel was/is preached to the dead so that they can have a fair chance of accepting it. Because God is fair and just.

The JS version may teach you that but what that Scripture is talking about is the souls of those in paradise before the death of Jesus and that, when he died, he lead them into heaven. By His sacrifice, heaven was now opened to all believers. In fact, Ephesians 4:7-16 says this:

But to each one of us grace has been given as Christ apportioned it. This is why it says:

“When he ascended on high, he took many captives and gave gifts to his people.”

(What does “he ascended” mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions? He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.) So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ. Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of people in their deceitful scheming. Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will grow to become in every respect the mature body of him who is the head, that is, Christ. From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work.

So, not only did Christ preach to the souls He was leading up to heaven - and they were ALREADY believers and saved - He also gave gifts to those here on earth - the gifts of the Holy Spirit so that He would equip his people for works of service to build up the Body of Christ. God IS fair AND merciful and He never turns anyone away who earnestly seeks Him. It is appointed unto man ONCE to die and after this the judgment. You don't get a "second chance" to believe once you've died. That's just more of JS's accursed gospel.

Good works prove we have faith. Doing the exact works of that Jesus commands proves that we have faith in Him.

Yes, our outward acts demonstrate an inward change, A genuine rebirth in Christ will result in a life that seeks to please God in all we do. But, our works are not what saves us - it is by the grace of God and NOT by our works, because NO ONE may boast before God and be able to claim they earned or merited their salvation. Once you understand grace, you will start to understand the place of good works in our lives.

Baptism for the dead is in the top three works God has given us. As it is shown in Titus, a pattern of good works must be shown. When the books are opened and your life is judged, can you say you did the work for your dead that the Lord has commanded you to do?

More JS accursed gospel. There is no "baptism for the dead". What Paul was talking about was NOT some new sacrament that Christians were expected to do but one of many wild practices of various religions who thought they could help a dead loved one by being a proxy or stand in for them in some kind of sacramental action. Paul was talking about the resurrection here and how futile EVEN that kind of a thing would be if there was no resurrection of the dead. What Mormonism did is invent a new sacramental practice of baptisms for dead people they didn't even KNOW or who NEVER showed any intention of following Christ in baptism. Did Paul or any of the Apostles go back and address this practice and spell it how how it should be done for Christians? NO. If anything, it was a casual mention of a practice some people did which would be pointless if no one got a resurrection body. It's not uncommon at all for cults to do this kind of thing - take a snippet of a verse and try to build a whole new MANDATORY religion around it. Sorry, but I don't need a new religion, I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that HE is able to guard what I have entrusted to him until the day of his return.

[StormPrepper]

"Do you believe living in a Communist and atheistic country can prevent a sincere seeker of God from hearing the truth?"

Yes. What you're describing is theory-craft and a type of extremism. If order for your point to be proven you have to maintain that no one through out time has never been denied access to the teachings of God if they wanted it.

The phrase "you don't know what you don't know" is true in the is case. I have met people even in the US that knew nothing about God. They had never heard of simple terms like "revelation" before. But they became interested after hearing about God.

What about even the Romans during the time Christ? They were purposefully kept from knowing the truth about Christ. It wasn't their fault, God kept it from them for a reason. But they still needed to have their fair chance of hearing the truth.

How much more isolated have people been in 3rd world countries?

The point is, I've come across many evangelicals in the past that try this line of reasoning. They don't have a viable answer for it, so they make up this unrealistic explanation and call it good.

Me: What about people that lived and died without ever hearing about Christ?
Evangelicals: Nobody in the whole history of the world has ever not had the chance to hear about Christ ....who wanted it!

It's unrealistic and quite frankly it's down right silly. Mainly because I can compare this evangelical theory with the real world. You can't, because it doesn't match up. It doesn't work. Any rational person can see that.

"It's incredibly stupid and false."

The irony.

"Smith set out to reform the Bible into his own perverted interpretation of the gospel and the one he preached is accursed because it is NOT the one Paul delivered through the Holy Spirit. JS was a con man, horn dog who broke every commandment God ever gave. Following after him is a sure way to join him in hell."

"and all the other sects profess to believe their interpretations of the Bible and their creeds." And let me add, if anyone refuses to accept their interpretations they will condemn you to hell. (And they will say mean things about you using hyperbolic language.)

"Scripture is talking about is the souls of those in paradise before the death of Jesus and that, when he died, he lead them into heaven."

This is the EWC (Evangelical Wash Cycle) at work. The scripture is very clear on what's going on here and you can't get around it. You can spin it all you want but the text is plain.

1 Pet 4:
...this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead,

1 Pet 3:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

These were the people who died in the great flood. And Christ went and preached (taught) them in the spirit world. Noah was one man, he could not have taught everyone in the world. Therefore, there were people who never heard the gospel and Jesus taught them after they died. They have a fair chance to accept or reject Him.

He preached to the dead the same way He preached to the living and for the same purpose. Simple. Matches the text. Makes perfect sense. Good to go.

But "Christianity" sadly, won't accept that doctrine. Because it opens a can of worms doesn't it? No matter how true it looks, sounds, or how much the Spirit tells them its true, if they accept that doctrine, they have to accept the one who brought it.

The Evangelical doctrine, or I should say "Christianity" as a whole is fragile. It's actually a very small sphere of knowledge and shrinking.

A perfect example is "works". It used to be "works" was essential. Then the question arose, well what works? So then it quickly became "works don't matter!" Works is one of the most talked about subjects in the New Testament. But because it begs a question that "Christianity" can't answer, they deny it has any meaning at all; works don't matter!

God expands knowledge He doesn't limit it.

"But, our works are not what saves us - it is by the grace of God and NOT"

And we've never said anything different. However, in order to be given that grace, certain things are required of us by Jesus.

"What Paul was talking about was NOT some new sacrament that Christians were expected to do but one of many wild practices"

I've seen the Evangelical explanation of Baptism for the dead morph over the years. Many years ago, they had no explanation for it. Then someone floated the idea in the early 90's that because Paul was correcting doctrine, that it had a negative meaning. The first person I ever saw say this was Robert McKay from Utah Mission Inc. (Professional anti-mormon group funded by the SBC)

Then over the years it morphed into "no, this was a practice of some of the cults in the area and Paul is telling them to stop".

I can understand why though. "Christianity" doesn't know anything about it and it's disconcerting that Paul is shown to be talking about it. So here's just another "It doesn't matter!" moment.

Paul isn't condemning the practice of Baptism for the dead, he's using it as evidence of the resurrection.

"Did Paul or any of the Apostles go back and address this practice and spell it how how it should be done for Christians? NO."

This kind of thinking is so strange. There was no Bible when the apostles were writing these things. You don't know if they spelled it out some where or not. John has said that there were important things that he DIDN'T write down. What if the 3rd letter to Corinth spelled it out.

Jesus taught face to face and so did the Apostles. He taught from the scriptures from time to time. But His doctrine was given from Him directly to the people. It wasn't written down and then delivered to the people. So you don't know what you don't know.

FYI, just because I am baptized for someone that's dead, doesn't mean they are baptized. They still have the right to accept or reject the baptism done for them. The commandment is do it for everyone, so they at least have the chance. That's the way Heavenly Father set up the plan of salvation. This was the plan from the start.