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The Neverending Story (The Christian Chronicles)
AP ^ | 3/24/01

Posted on 03/10/2004 9:37:27 PM PST by malakhi

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.


Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

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TOPICS: Catholic; Charismatic Christian; Eastern Religions; Evangelical Christian; General Discusssion; Islam; Judaism; Mainline Protestant; Orthodox Christian; Other Christian; Other non-Christian; Skeptics/Seekers
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To: CindyDawg; PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain; IMRight; ksen; Invincibly Ignorant
"Yeah I said it. So what?"

So, nothing. Mack wanted to know where ksen and IMRight got the idea people were giving up on II and I pointed to your post.

1,761 posted on 04/05/2004 12:09:23 PM PDT by AlguyA
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To: CindyDawg; Invincibly Ignorant; PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain; drstevej; Alex Murphy; RnMomof7
CD, if I misconstrued what you said in your post, then I am sorry. But it read to me like you thought that the Non-Calvinists had given up on II. That was before you posted about praying for him, which I do not think is nothing.

Calvinists care about people's souls, believe it or not. I am not ready to give up on II. Does that mean I don't believe in God's Sovereignty anymore? No, it doesn't. What it does mean is that I am a finite creature and cannot see the end from the beginning like God does. That said I still pray that God will reach down and remove the scales from II's eyes like He did for Saul.

We care because we DON'T know what God has decided for II. Only He does. So until He cares to reveal Himself I will hold out hope that our God will work a great work in II's life.
1,762 posted on 04/05/2004 12:11:13 PM PDT by ksen (This day we fight! By all that you hold dear on this good earth I bid you stand, Men of the West!)
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To: AlguyA
Would you now say you were mistaken in this belief and that, in fact, you never had such a 'personal relationship?'

Yes I was mistaken. I believe God used Christianity to lead me to the Torah. For that I'm thankful.

1,763 posted on 04/05/2004 12:18:57 PM PDT by Invincibly Ignorant
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To: Invincibly Ignorant
Yes I was mistaken.

Would you also admit that since you were mistaken about having a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, the definition of being a Christian, that you were never really a Christian at any point in your life?

1,764 posted on 04/05/2004 12:26:35 PM PDT by ksen (This day we fight! By all that you hold dear on this good earth I bid you stand, Men of the West!)
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To: Invincibly Ignorant
"Who" or "what" then do you suppose you had a "relationship" with? Or was it all in your head?
1,765 posted on 04/05/2004 12:28:57 PM PDT by IMRight
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To: ksen; Invincibly Ignorant; malakhi
Would you also admit that since you were mistaken about having a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, the definition of being a Christian, that you were never really a Christian at any point in your life?

To be fair... your question assumes that Jesus Christ exists and that being a Christian means you have a relationship with Him. If you assume that he does NOT exist, then being a Christian just means you THINK you have such a relationship. Steven fit that bill.

He doesn't have to say "I was never really a Christian". It's the OSAS crowd who needs to make that argument to remain sane.

II - You are, however, moving outside the bounds of "invincible ignorance". It may be time for a screen name change.

We could raffle off the rights to pick it?

1,766 posted on 04/05/2004 12:37:32 PM PDT by IMRight
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To: IMRight; Invincibly Ignorant
If you assume that he does NOT exist, then being a Christian just means you THINK you have such a relationship.

If you THINK you have a relationship with someone you assume does NOT exist then you are crazy.

Steven fit that bill.

I'm not willing to go that far. ;^)

1,767 posted on 04/05/2004 12:49:48 PM PDT by ksen (This day we fight! By all that you hold dear on this good earth I bid you stand, Men of the West!)
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To: ksen
was before you posted about praying for him,

Don't think so. see #1715. I was just making a comment that about a year ago a lot of us were very intense in our posts about Stevens "first announcement". How many of the people here have stayed the course and tried to reason with him? Today is a very sad day for me (even though I was expecting it). Suddenly the calvary arrives. I was just asking why? For the kill or to change his mind. JMO but it seems like a game to some (you and RN excluded).

1,768 posted on 04/05/2004 12:50:54 PM PDT by CindyDawg
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To: IMRight
It's the OSAS crowd who needs to make that argument to remain sane.

This isn't complicated:') You are either saved or you aren't. If you aren't you are lost. If you are and turn your back on Christ the consequences aren't limited to just you. You may have fire insurance but what about others that might be led astray? spouse, children, friends etc.

1,769 posted on 04/05/2004 12:58:36 PM PDT by CindyDawg
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To: ksen; Invincibly Ignorant; IMRight
If Steven can see how his relationship with Jesus helped him grow closer to God and his Torah, even though it turns out that "Jesus" is a chimera, it should help him and the others like him to understand how a True God can use what light of truth is in a culture for His own means.

To put it another way, Steven, by trying to eschew the pagan and find the pure God has discovered that even our Jesus is a pagan accretion. And ironically, a relationship with this pagan god led him to the True God.

SD

1,770 posted on 04/05/2004 1:01:59 PM PDT by SoothingDave
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To: ksen; malakhi
If you THINK you have a relationship with someone you assume does NOT exist then you are crazy.

Nice twist. If you THOUGHT you HAD a relationship with someone you NOW don't think exists (but DID THEN) you're not crazy. Especially in the case of a "someone" who can't be seen or heard etc. etc. etc.

Ask Angelo. He certainly doesn't define "Christian" as being someone with a relationship with a "Jesus" that he doesn't even think exists. You have to BE someone with some level of that relationship to believe that the relationship is the dividing line. I'm not willing to go that far. ;^)

Perhaps not. But I was here before he came unhinged and he certainly "talked the talk" like someone who had (or believed he had) such a relationship. More than one of the NCs here was "fooled" if he was faking it.

The real problem is that (if you fall into the OSAS crowd) you are forced to think that he was/is a liar. I don't need to make such an assumption.

1,771 posted on 04/05/2004 1:03:18 PM PDT by IMRight
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To: SoothingDave
Oh Boy......

I'm afraid I don't agree with any of that.

1,772 posted on 04/05/2004 1:04:53 PM PDT by IMRight
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To: IMRight
"Who" or "what" then do you suppose you had a "relationship" with? Or was it all in your head?

Had a relationship with God. You should have asked me this a few months ago when I didn't believe Jesus was God although clung to his messiahship.

1,773 posted on 04/05/2004 1:07:00 PM PDT by Invincibly Ignorant
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To: CindyDawg
This isn't complicated:') You are either saved or you aren't. If you aren't you are lost. If you are and turn your back on Christ the consequences aren't limited to just you. You may have fire insurance but what about others that might be led astray? spouse, children, friends etc.

That sure SOUNDS pretty complicated. Of course "you either are or you aren't", but if you "ARE" can you later become "AREN'T"? IF "no" then Steven is/was a liar and never believed what he claimed to beleive (and defended quite... um... "aggressively". If "yes" then OSAS is a false dogma.

1,774 posted on 04/05/2004 1:08:10 PM PDT by IMRight
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To: IMRight
OSAS really on your mind today, huh?
1,775 posted on 04/05/2004 1:08:20 PM PDT by CindyDawg
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To: Invincibly Ignorant
Had a relationship with God. You should have asked me this a few months ago when I didn't believe Jesus was God .

And He didn't mind that you had a heretical belief in a non-existant co-god? That's quite a relationship. But if the one you have a relationship with someone who doesn't exist - we call that "an imaginary friend" and prescribe medication for men your age.

BTW - so are the non-jew-non-christians out there still going to heaven since the tree they worhip is probably just God reaching out to them in a way they can accept?

although clung to his messiahship

Perhaps "clung" is too strong a word?

1,776 posted on 04/05/2004 1:12:22 PM PDT by IMRight
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To: IMRight; ksen; malakhi; SoothingDave; CindyDawg
Listen to you putting down OSAS.

The one I asked the other day if you died tonight would you go to heaven without a doubt and you answered without a doubt!

You hypocrite! The Catholic church you claim to follow teaches if you claim that you KNOW your saved you are cursed and dammed. Spin it anyway you want but thats what you posted, and the always on guard SoothingDave blew right by hoping no one would notice.

In order to say I know without doubt I'm going to heaven you HAVE to believe in OSAS.

BigMack
1,777 posted on 04/05/2004 1:13:36 PM PDT by PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain (Proud member of the Lunatic Fringe, we love Spam, Uzi's and Jesus)
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To: Invincibly Ignorant
You're gonna look funny in one of those bennie hats. :)

BigMack
1,778 posted on 04/05/2004 1:18:29 PM PDT by PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain (Proud member of the Lunatic Fringe, we love Spam, Uzi's and Jesus)
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To: IMRight
A liar? What would someone gain from that? The only example I could think of would be a ministry for profit. Can people deceive theirselves? Of course. Look around your church at all that talk the talk and walk the walk. Think they are all saved?

Can a saved person fall out with God? Sure. I did at one time in my life. People who do though usually do from some crisis that has occurred and are eventually brought back into the fold. Here IMO actions are very important cues. Are they happy or appear lost and searching? If someone was truly saved they will not have peace until they are right with the Father and the Son.

1,779 posted on 04/05/2004 1:19:13 PM PDT by CindyDawg
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To: ksen; CindyDawg; Invincibly Ignorant; al_c; PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain; drstevej; malakhi; ...
We care because we DON'T know what God has decided for II. Only He does. So until He cares to reveal Himself I will hold out hope that our God will work a great work in II's life.

On this thread we have "Christians" who have converted from Catholicism to Protestantism, Protestantism to Catholicism, Catholicism to, oh dred - Biblical Unitarianism, and even more dred, to Judaism. God loves us all. Each and every one of us.

II loves the same God as you all do and the same God loves him. My heartfelt prayers for peace and happiness to II.

1,780 posted on 04/05/2004 1:20:56 PM PDT by OLD REGGIE (I am most likely a Biblical Unitarian?)
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