Telemarketers on the ropes

Aug. 11 — In the past three months, the hallways at Groesbeck-based Tel-A-Sell Marketing Inc. have become a lot less crowded. CEO Edd O’Connor has been forced to trim his telemarketing staff from 72 to 18.

“I WAS RUNNING a full house earlier this year,” said O’Connor, who also serves as president of the American Teleservices Association’s Great Lakes Chapter, which covers Ohio, Indiana, Kentucky and Michigan.

One of the big reason for the cuts: the chilling effects of the National Do Not Call Registry and other similar efforts in statehouses across the country.

A month into the sign-ups for the federal Do Not Call list, nearly 30 million phone numbers across the United States have been registered for the list. That number could double by the time the list takes effect on Oct. 1.

The ATA, which is challenging the list in court, said the national list could eventually cause more than 2 million lost telemarketing jobs. The ATA estimated that telemarketers are responsible for $660 billion in sales. The combined effects of do-not-call lists and the movement of jobs overseas have left the industry ailing.

“It’s going to cause significant business problems for this industry,” said O’Connor, who said he expects a pickup in business in early fall. “We’ve got to step back and regroup.”

The law is based on theft of service. PERIOD.

No, the law is really based on making people feel comfortable. There is no "theft of service," even if the law says so. The service offered to you by the phone company is an "open line" that anyone can call. If you paid the phone company for a "closed line" limited to only those callers you approved, and telemarketers somehow managed to circumvent the block and reach you, THEN I can understand the "theft of service." But, an open line is an open line.

And "caller ID" is not the same as a "No Solicitors" sign. Caller ID is similar to an answering machine; it simply gives you a tool for screening your calls. Neither is the "telezapper" a "No Solicitors" sign; it merely messes with the telemarketing company's computer system.

I'm not building "strawmen". You're so clouded by your outrage at obnoxious telemarketers (who I have already said annoy me to no end, too) that I have to present other scenarios that fall along the same lines just to try to make you understand the principle behind what I'm saying.

And, actually, the only reason I wanted to walk away is that I'm a busy person, too, and it doesn't look like you're ever going to understand. And, in the end, the deal is done, anyway.

Well it took a while but we're seeing your true colors now. You're just an apologist for a bad industry and you're not going to let any facts get in your way.

Yes there most assuredly IS theft of service. The service offered to me by the phone company is a tool to get wanted phonecalls, there is a presumption that some unwanted phonecalls will also come but the idea is that they will not be the majority and if they fit a pattern of harassment I may press charges and have the government do something about it.

No caller ID is exactly the "closed line" you mentioned earlier. It was sold for its ability to block sales calls, then the telemarketers figured out how to spoof it and get around it. Of course telezappers are a No Soliciting sign, HELLO they take your number off their list WAKIE WAKIE, why would somebody want their number off the list? Oh yeah... BECAUSE THEY DON'T WANT TO RECEIVE TELEPHONE SOLICITATION.

You're building strawmen constantly. You're denial is either a product of ignorance or a lie. I have no outrage at obnoxious telemarketers, I just want them to stop calling me and I don't want to have to spend 15 minutes per company to make them stop. Very simple. They wouldn't provide that even when instructed by the federal government to do so, so now that has been provided for them.

Then walk away. But understand there is no agreeing to disagree. You are wrong. PERIOD.

Well it took a while but we're seeing your true colors now. You're just an apologist for a bad industry and you're not going to let any facts get in your way.

Oh, boy, at first I thought you might be good at debating, but I was wrong. You're so desperate now that you're calling me names (like "apologist"). Your posts are a waste of my time.

And, no, sweetie, Caller ID only displays the name or number of the person calling you. It is nothing more than a screening tool. It does not guarantee by contract that an unwanted person won't get through. And, legally, the telezapper is not a "no solicitors" sign. Some telephone sales companies don't even use computer-generated calling systems.

As I said, a "no solicitors" message - one delivered by the phone company - was the best idea I heard yet. Another idea would be to fine just those telemarketing companies who have overstepped the line by harrassing people.

But, creating a government "list" and then fining any company who calls any number on that list is stopping ALL telephone salespeople from making that first call. Again, it's anti-business, no matter how annoying you or I think telemarketers are.

"Apologist" is name calling? I know some well respected Christian philosophers that would argue that. If my posts are a waste of your time then stop reading them.

No "sweetie" Caller ID also blocks calls from unwanted or unidentifiable numbers. Of course it's not garauntee, nothing can be. But it was advertised as a method of blocking telemarketers, it does have the ability to put in a message where you tell telemarketers not to call you anymore.

And now you dive into classic bad apologist tactics. Since the telezapper wasn't a "legal" no solicistors sign it's OK for the telemarketers to avoid it.

I notice you continue to ignore the FACT that telemarketers HAVE BEEN required BY LAW to allow people to get off their lists for YEARS and their answer to that was to create convoluted processes most people simply wouldn't have the patience to go through. The original intent of that law was the best idea yet. But the telemarketers abused the letter of the law to violate the intent.

The ONLY thing the DNC has added was the centralized list. The individual method carried the same fine for violation. It doesn't stop ALL sales people, and it only stops the phonecall as first contact, customers can still request information from the company via male or phone call and work from there. That's a highly profitable method of persuing sales, perfected by Craftmatic. All that's being stopped is using the telephone as advertising. It's not anti-business, it's PRO individual.

It is YOU who avoids the FACTS.

Since the telezapper wasn't a "legal" no solicistors sign it's OK for the telemarketers to avoid it.

As already explained to you, the telezapper merely messes with an automated computer calling system used by telemarketers. As I already said, first, NOT ALL telephone salespeople use those automated systems. Secondly, you're only messing with their system; you're not telling them not to call. (You're thinking in terms of a "group" - not all telemarketing companies are the same. They're not all working the same way, nor do they all know that you have a telezapper).

I notice you continue to ignore the FACT that telemarketers HAVE BEEN required BY LAW to allow people to get off their lists for YEARS and their answer to that was to create convoluted processes most people simply wouldn't have the patience to go through.

And YOU continue to ignore my support of other measures, like fining those particular telemarketing companies who overstep the boundaries and harrass people. Or you as the call receiver able to punch a number that traces the call through the phone company and reports it for harrassment. (And of course there's always you who can tell them to "get lost" and hangup). There are many other possibilities without asking the feds to create a list and then fine every salesperson who makes that first cold call.

It doesn't stop ALL sales people, and it only stops the phonecall as first contact, customers can still request information from the company via male or phone call and work from there.

And, sales for those companies will drop. The reason we receive sales calls is that people are buying from those telemarketers. Those cold calls move potential customers into action; otherwise, the customer might never get around to picking up the phone and calling, and, if he/she does, he/she may call a competitor who will be certain to ensure that the customer doesn't trust the competition.

Again, like it or not, telemarketing, as annoying as everyone finds it, has been a successful business tool. This law outlaws the use of that tool. ("Order-taking" and "following up on a sales call" are not the same as "telemarketing/telephone sales", which are generating much more business than people would like to acknowledge).

I see you've learned a lot from your telemarketing experience. Three times in a row you said you were done and you keep coming back.

But again the telemarkets show their true colors, any of them that use the automated systems run into the telezapper and know why the person is using it. Instead of being remotely honorable and leaving the person off their list they change the program to make telezappers useless.

Because your "support" for those other methods is hollow. We've tried it that way, since people get hungup on before they can get on the do not call list the company can't be prosecuted for harassment. We tried it your way, it didn't work. Since the telemarketers couldn't be trusted to keep their own list who should we have turned to?

Luckily for them there are plenty of other ways to advertise. Also not the entire country is going to be on the list, there will still be plenty of folks for them to call, I'm betting the sales percentage will go up because they'll no longer be calling people that never were going to buy a damn thing from them anyway. While they're reading this database they should take the time to check out some other database, like the reverse phone lookups. I'm sure they're sales percentages would go up even more if they stopped trying to sell new roofs to people with numbers at the end of their street address or storm windows to people living in Tucson.

This does NOT outlaw the use of that tool. It doesn't make it anymore illegal than previous opt out regulation, all it does is give a central location for people to opt out from. That's it. The regulation around the list, including the fine for violating it, is EXACTLY THE SAME. All that's changed is the fed has realized the telemarketers can't be trusted to maintain their own list.

What you don't seem to be willing to acknowledge is that your argument is a statist's argument. The real issue should be: Have our rights been violated by receiving an unsolicited phone call? Not unless that caller has crossed the boundary into harrassment.

You just keep repeating, "We've given them a chance, and they screwed up," over and over again. Again, statists can say the same about ANYTHING, but that is not a justification for outlawing something. Rather, you'd have to show that they violated your rights. And, though salespeople are annoying, they're not violating your rights until they cross the boundary into harrassment.

All this list does is criminalize cold calling. And maybe most people are glad about that (I certainly won't miss it, either). My point is that it's just one more step into the big government direction, and it will hurt business.

BTW, even with "cold calling," most telephone sales companies already work with lists of people who might be interested; that is, they've already screened out the people who are a waste of time and money to call. Now, they won't even be able to call the "potential" customers.

Again, no sweat off your back. The point is that this DNC list WILL hurt business. How much so remains to be seen. It will be interesting to see just how much it hurts.

No it's not. What you're unwilling to aknowledge is that we tried this without government intervention and the telemarketers drove their entire business through the loophole.

The answer to that question is YES, because, and I've told you this before THEY ARE STEALING OUT SERVICE. We have a right not to be stolen from.

no the list does NOT criminalize cold calling. That is a DAMED LIE. They can still do plenty of cold calling, just not to people on the list. They've only got 30 million people on the list, they're expecting it to double. There's 280 million people in this country, even if every single number represents 2 people that still leaves 160 million people they can call.

BWAHAHAHAHA that's the stupidest freaking statement on this thread. The telemarketers don't screen their lists at all. Most of them don't even bother to find out if the number exists, they just go through sequences starting with a prefix and cycling from 0001 to 9999. I think what's happened here is you did telesales at someplace that wasn't a telemarketing company and have ASSumed their methods were the methods of the industry. They aren't. If they pre-screened calls I wouldn't get the same damn call every single week for the last 6 months trying to sell me a new roof, after three months of not returning the call they would know I'm not interested, and if they'd bothered to do a number lookup they'd know I rent and can't make the decision even if I was interested.

Some businesses get hurt by laws, that's life. The question is, should the business be immune from the law because of the good it does. Stealing people's phone service to try to sell them stuff doesn't warrant this immunity. And again, it's an old issue. They've been under order to make these lists for YEARS, they just found loopholes to make their lists useless. And finally enough became enough and now they're going to be GIVEN the list.

You can repeat over and over again that "they are stealing our service." That does not mean that they are stealing your service. Again, you paid a company for an open phone line. You didn't pay for a closed phone line restricted only to those people from whom you want to receive calls. Anyone can call you, as long as they're not threatening or harrasing you (for example).

True, not every single person is on the no-call list, but the numbers are growing by leaps and bounds.

I never said that every single telemarketing company "screens its calls" or that telemarketers themselves do. Telesales, telemarketing, it's all the same - there are simply different levels. This no-call list doesn't restrict only the annoying, obnoxious telemarketers from calling you; every company is restricted from making a "cold call" to someone on that list.

P.S. I already described what I did in "telephone sales" on a previous post to someone else. The company was a reputable company, but our sales dept. had to rely on telephone sales to reach the national market, and as salespeople we brought the business into the company. Without that cold calling, instead sitting there waiting for customers to call us - it's unthinkable. Our sales would've dropped dramatically, and half the employees would've been laid off.

You can deny over and over that they are stealing service it won't change the simple fact that they are.

The projected number of people in this article is that not even half the country will be on the list. It's a big country, I think the telemarketers will be able to survive selling to the other half.

NO telesales and telemarketing ARE NOT the same thing. this is showing just exactly how ignorant of this you are. Telemarketing is specifically defined as a form of advertising using the phone, telesales is strictly the final sale. It's the difference between sales and marketing, there's overlap but they do have very distinct differences. All telemarketers are annoying. Anyone that would call you up on the phone, taking away your personal time, interrupting your personal life, to tell you about some product you've shown no previous interest in is, by definition, an annoying person. Also notice there are specific exemptions, if I check "yes you may contact me to inform me about new products" on any registration form that company is allowed to cold call me even if I'm on the list.

I read your description. And it's abundantly clear that you're short sited and have no comprehension of the sales cycles. Hundreds, THOUSANDS of travel agencies exist that don't cold call people. Why is it your company couldn't exists without it? The answer is they could have if they'd wanted to, but cold calling is cheap, that's why companies like it. It's also obnoxious as hell. It also won't magically go away because of the list, not even close, all that's going to happen is that most of those people you called who didn't buy, who hung up, who cursed at you, won't be on the list to call anymore. Whoopdee-freaking-do, they won't be able to call people they shouldn't have called in the first place, this will reduce costs and increase profitability.

Also notice there are specific exemptions, if I check "yes you may contact me to inform me about new products" on any registration form that company is allowed to cold call me even if I'm on the list.

Oh, and you're SO knowledgeable about sales. (/sarcasm off) What you described above is NOT a "cold call". A "cold call" is a salesperson calling you without you contacting the company first or expressing an interest in the company's product/service first.

It's the difference between sales and marketing, there's overlap but they do have very distinct differences.

Oh, you're reaching. Telephone salespeople employ telemarketing, too. You don't make a final sale via telephone until you've talked to the person first.

You can deny over and over that they are stealing service it won't change the simple fact that they are.

Your service is a telephone number that anyone can call. Period. End of story. If they haven't tapped into your number and directed all your calls to their company, then they haven't "stolen" your service. You're reaching again.

Hundreds, THOUSANDS of travel agencies exist that don't cold call people. Why is it your company couldn't exists without it?

There are many different sectors within the travel industry. I worked in the travel industry for the better part of 14 years in several different sectors. Without going into detail, I will only say that our competitors ALL employed telephone sales, too, in the last sector where I worked. It was the most EFFECTIVE way to reach potential customers nationwide.

Yep, but your acting like all business phonecalls will disappear, that's simply not the case. Only cold calls are effected and only cold calls to people on the list.

Not all telesales people do telemarketing, not by a long shot. Only the cold callers do. A rather large chunk of telephone sales aren't cold call, those are the companies with integrity.

You can keep saying it over and over but you're still wrong. According to the laws, which have been tested in court, unwanted telephone solicitation is theft of your telephone service. Whine, bitch and complain all you want, the definition STANDS and you are WRONG.

Ah and now you mix terms again. Sure travel agencies use telephone sales, but not all telephone sales are cold calls. Why couldn't yours survive without cold calls? I'm guess their deals sucked and they're primary source of clients were people who hadn't done any research to find out there were better deals.

I think that maybe you (and most other people) don't know what "cold calls" are. You seem to think that only obnoxious telemarketers using computer-automated dialing systems are making "cold calls".

The term "cold calls" refers to any attempt by a salesperson to sell/offer products/services to someone with whom he/she does not already have an established business relationship.

So, using you as an example, suppose I have a roofing company. I want to offer my product/service to all potential customers. I see from your address that you own a home. I call you: "Hello, Discostu, my name is Tired of Taxes, and our company is offering a great deal on a new roof. How old is your roof, by the way...?" That's a "cold call". (You: "I rent an apartment." End of call).

Also, let's clear up these terms you're using: "telemarketing" vs. "telesales". See http://www.asatelemarketing.co.uk/faqs.htm#2.

-snip-

"Telesales is the use of the telephone for selling and promoting products or services to a business or consumer base.

The modern use of the word "Telemarketing" refers to anything related with the use of the telephone, including Telesales."

-snip-

So, "telesales" is really the part of "telemarketing" that everyone hates because, of course, one of the methods of "telesales" is "cold calling".

If someone isn't making "cold calls" at all, then he isn't really doing telesales. He's just "taking orders over the phone." Yes, some companies will give "order-takers" the title "sales representative", but they're really not salespeople at all. They're just customer service representatives following up for the customers who contact them FIRST.

Why couldn't my former employer survive without cold calling? Well, the company would've survived, but there would've been far less employees on its payroll. Like it or not, cold calling has always brought in more business, adding to a company's existing clientele. BTW, the company for which I worked had a great deal. We also mailed catalogs and brochures, but the telephone is the most effective way to reach the national market. That's just the age in which we're living.

Now, back to the new National Do Not Call Registry: The Registry is supposed to penalize companies for making unsolicited calls. So, that first call, offering their goods to you, is now outlawed if your name is on that list. Even small businesses not using automated dialing systems and calling from a small list will need to comply. The only organizations that are exempt are political, charitable, and survey-takers (the very ones from whom I personally receive the MOST calls).

Good, you say. But, the fact is that cold calling does bring in more business. So, sales will drop, and businesses may fail.

Now, maybe you can find a site for me that defines those "cold calls" or "telemarketing" as "theft of telephone service." If you're right on that point, I'll acknowledge it. At this point, I do not see how it could possibly be considered "theft of telephone service," which I have always understood to mean "remote access fraud" or some other similar crime that steals your phone number.

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