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Skulls Found in Africa and in Europe Challenge Theories of Human Origins
NY Times ^ | August 6, 2002 | By JOHN NOBLE WILFORD

Posted on 08/11/2002 3:59:04 PM PDT by vannrox



August 6, 2002

Skulls Found in Africa and in Europe Challenge Theories of Human Origins

By JOHN NOBLE WILFORD

Two ancient skulls, one from central Africa and the other from the Black Sea republic of Georgia, have shaken the human family tree to its roots, sending scientists scrambling to see if their favorite theories are among the fallen fruit.

Probably so, according to paleontologists, who may have to make major revisions in the human genealogy and rethink some of their ideas about the first migrations out of Africa by human relatives.

Yet, despite all the confusion and uncertainty the skulls have caused, scientists speak in superlatives of their potential for revealing crucial insights in the evidence-disadvantaged field of human evolution.

The African skull dates from nearly 7 million years ago, close to the fateful moment when the human and chimpanzee lineages went their separate ways. The 1.75-million-year-old Georgian skull could answer questions about the first human ancestors to leave Africa, and why they ventured forth.

Still, it was a shock, something of a one-two punch, for two such momentous discoveries to be reported independently in a single week, as happened in July.

"I can't think of another month in the history of paleontology in which two such finds of importance were published," said Dr. Bernard Wood, a paleontologist at George Washington University. "This really exposes how little we know of human evolution and the origin of our own genus Homo."

Every decade or two, a fossil discovery upsets conventional wisdom. One more possible "missing link" emerges. An even older member of the hominid group, those human ancestors and their close relatives (but not apes), comes to light. Some fossils also show up with attributes so puzzling that scientists cannot decide where they belong, if at all, in the human lineage.

At each turn, the family tree, once drawn straight as a ponderosa pine, has had to be reconfigured with more branches leading here and there and, in some cases, apparently nowhere.

"When I went to medical school in 1963, human evolution looked like a ladder," Dr. Wood said. The ladder, he explained, stepped from monkey to modern human through a progression of intermediates, each slightly less apelike than the previous one.

But the fact that modern Homo sapiens is the only hominid living today is quite misleading, an exception to the rule dating only since the demise of Neanderthals some 30,000 years ago. Fossil hunters keep finding multiple species of hominids that overlapped in time, reflecting evolutionary diversity in response to new or changed circumstances. Not all of them could be direct ancestors of Homo sapiens. Some presumably were dead-end side branches.

So a tangled bush has now replaced a tree as the ascendant imagery of human evolution. Most scientists studying the newfound African skull think it lends strong support to hominid bushiness almost from the beginning.

That is one of several reasons Dr. Daniel E. Lieberman, a biological anthropologist at Harvard, called the African specimen "one of the greatest paleontological discoveries of the past 100 years."

The skull was uncovered in the desert of Chad by a French-led team under the direction of Dr. Michel Brunet of the University of Poitiers. Struck by the skull's unusual mix of apelike and evolved hominid features, the discoverers assigned it to an entirely new genus and species — Sahelanthropus tchadensis. It is more commonly called Toumai, meaning "hope of life" in the local language.

In announcing the discovery in the July 11 issue of the journal Nature, Dr. Brunet's group said the fossils — a cranium, two lower jaw fragments and several teeth — promised "to illuminate the earliest chapter in human evolutionary history."

The age, face and geography of the new specimen were all surprises.

About a million years older than any previously recognized hominid, Toumai lived close to the time that molecular biologists think was the earliest period in which the human lineage diverged from the chimpanzee branch. The next oldest hominid appears to be the 6-million-year-old Orrorin tugenensis, found two years ago in Kenya but not yet fully accepted by many scientists. After it is Ardipithecus ramidus, which probably lived 4.4 million to 5.8 million years ago in Ethiopia.

"A lot of interesting things were happening earlier than we previously knew," said Dr. Eric Delson, a paleontologist at the City University of New York and the American Museum of Natural History.

The most puzzling aspect of the new skull is that it seems to belong to two widely separated evolutionary periods. Its size indicates that Toumai had a brain comparable to that of a modern chimp, about 320 to 380 cubic centimeters. Yet the face is short and relatively flat, compared with the protruding faces of chimps and other early hominids. Indeed, it is more humanlike than the "Lucy" species, Australopithecus afarensis, which lived more than 3.2 million years ago.

"A hominid of this age," Dr. Wood wrote in Nature, "should certainly not have the face of a hominid less than one-third of its geological age."

Scientists suggest several possible explanations. Toumai could somehow be an ancestor of modern humans, or of gorillas or chimps. It could be a common ancestor of humans and chimps, before the divergence.

"But why restrict yourself to thinking this fossil has to belong to a lineage that leads to something modern?" Dr. Wood asked. "It's perfectly possible this belongs to a branch that's neither chimp nor human, but has become extinct."

Dr. Wood said the "lesson of history" is that fossil hunters are more likely to find something unrelated directly to living creatures — more side branches to tangle the evolutionary bush. So the picture of human genealogy gets more complex, not simpler.

A few scientists sound cautionary notes. Dr. Delson questioned whether the Toumai face was complete enough to justify interpretations of more highly evolved characteristics. One critic argued that the skull belonged to a gorilla, but that is disputed by scientists who have examined it.

Just as important perhaps is the fact that the Chad skull was found off the beaten path of hominid research. Until now, nearly every early hominid fossil has come from eastern Africa, mainly Ethiopia, Kenya and Tanzania, or from southern Africa. Finding something very old and different in central Africa should expand the hunt.

"In hindsight, we should have expected this," Dr. Lieberman said. "Africa is big and we weren't looking at all of Africa. This fossil is a wake-up call. It reminds us that we're missing large portions of the fossil record."

Although overshadowed by the news of Toumai, the well-preserved 1.75-million-year-old skull from Georgia was also full of surprises, in this case concerning a later chapter in the hominid story. It raised questions about the identity of the first hominids to be intercontinental travelers, who set in motion the migrations that would eventually lead to human occupation of the entire planet.

The discovery, reported in the July 5 issue of the journal Science, was made at the medieval town Dmanisi, 50 miles southwest of Tbilisi, the Georgian capital. Two years ago, scientists announced finding two other skulls at the same site, but the new one appears to be intriguingly different and a challenge to prevailing views.

Scientists have long been thought that the first hominid out-of-Africa migrants were Homo erectus, a species with large brains and a stature approaching human dimensions. The species was widely assumed to have stepped out in the world once they evolved their greater intelligence and longer legs and invented more advanced stone tools.

The first two Dmanisi skulls confirmed one part of the hypothesis. They bore a striking resemblance to the African version of H. erectus, sometimes called Homo ergaster. Their discovery was hailed as the most ancient undisputed hominid fossils outside Africa.

But the skulls were associated with more than 1,000 crudely chipped cobbles, simple choppers and scrapers, not the more finely shaped and versatile tools that would be introduced by H. erectus more than 100,000 years later. That undercut the accepted evolutionary explanation for the migrations.

The issue has become even more muddled with the discovery of the third skull by international paleontologists led by Dr. David Lordkipanidze of the Georgian State Museum in Tbilisi. It is about the same age and bears an overall resemblance to the other two skulls. But it is much smaller.

"These hominids are more primitive than we thought," Dr. Lordkipanidze said in an article in the current issue of National Geographic magazine. "We have a new puzzle."

To the discoverers, the skull has the canine teeth and face of Homo habilis, a small hominid with long apelike arms that evolved in Africa before H. erectus. And the size of its cranium suggests a substantially smaller brain than expected for H. erectus.

In their journal report, the discovery team estimated the cranial capacity of the new skull to be about 600 cubic centimeters, compared with about 780 and 650 c.c.'s for the other Dmanisis specimens. That is "near the mean" for H. habilis, they noted. Modern human braincases are about 1,400 cubic centimeters.

Dr. G. Philip Rightmire, a paleontologist at the State University of New York at Binghamton and a member of the discovery team, said that if the new skull had been found before the other two, it might have been identified as H. habilis.

Dr. Ian Tattersall, a specialist in human evolution at the natural history museum in New York City, said the specimen was "the first truly African-looking thing to come from outside Africa." More than anything else, he said, it resembles a 1.9-million-year-old Homo habilis skull from Kenya.

For the time being, however, the fossil is tentatively labeled Homo erectus, though it stretches the definition of that species. Scientists are pondering what lessons they can learn from it about the diversity of physical attributes within a single species.

Dr. Fred Smith, a paleontologist who has just become dean of arts and sciences at Loyola University in Chicago, agreed that his was a sensible approach, at least until more fossils turn up. Like other scientists, he doubted that two separate hominid species would have occupied the same habitat at roughly the same time. Marked variations within a species are not uncommon; brain size varies within living humans by abut 15 percent.

"The possibility of variations within a species should never be excluded," Dr. Smith said. "There's a tendency now for everybody to see three bumps on a fossil instead of two and immediately declare that to be another species."

Some discoverers of the Dmanisi skull speculated that these hominids might be descended from ancestors like H. habilis that had already left Africa. In that case, it could be argued that H. erectus itself evolved not in Africa but elsewhere from an ex-African species. If so, the early Homo genealogy would have to be drastically revised.

But it takes more than two or even three specimens to reach firm conclusions about the range of variations within a species. Still, Georgia is a good place to start. The three specimens found there represent the largest collection of individuals from any single site older than around 800,000 years.

"We have now a very rich collection, of three skulls and three jawbones, which gives us a chance to study very properly this question" of how to classify early hominids, Dr. Lordkipanidze said, and paleontologists are busy this summer looking for more skulls at Dmanisi.

"We badly want to know what the functional abilities of the first out-of-Africa migrants were," said Dr. Wood of George Washington University. "What could that animal do that animals that preceded it couldn't? What was the role of culture in this migration? Maybe other animals were leaving and the hominids simply followed."

All scholars of human prehistory eagerly await the next finds from Dmanisi, and in Chad. Perhaps they will help untangle some of the bushy branches of the human family tree to reveal the true ancestry of Homo sapiens.




TOPICS: Culture/Society; Extended News; Foreign Affairs; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: black; crevolist; discovery; dmanisi; dna; evolution; gene; genealogy; georgia; godsgravesglyphs; history; homoerectus; homoerectusgeorgicus; human; man; mtdna; multiregionalism; oldowan; origin; origins; paleontologist; republicofgeorgia; science; sea; skull; theory
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321 posted on 08/14/2002 7:09:20 PM PDT by general_re
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To: Tribune7
But they weren't founded on Christ's teachings.

And the United States is? Really? I assume you can direct me to some site on the internet where there's a copy of the US Constitution with footnotes indicating where each significant passage can be traced to something Jesus said. Hint: don't bother looking, it doesn't exist. You can sit down with your Bible and your Constitution beside it, and you cannot find (without wild squirming and re-interpretation) any scriptural basis for our form of government. Read the Federalist Papers. They do not justify the Constitution's provisions on scriptural grounds. Why not? Because the Bible is essentially about monarchies, both on earth and in heaven.

322 posted on 08/14/2002 7:10:07 PM PDT by PatrickHenry
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To: Tribune7
OK, I forgive you ;)
323 posted on 08/14/2002 7:11:10 PM PDT by BMCDA
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To: PatrickHenry
"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here."

--(take a guess):-)

324 posted on 08/14/2002 7:17:38 PM PDT by Tribune7
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To: exDemMom
Meaning that I am literally a walking textbook on the very subject matter on which you are trying to snow me.

I have no problem with that, thanks for the warning!

The fact is, genome project or not, we do not know how many genes or proteins are in humans. And the old adage that one gene = one protein is still pretty much true. When two different products come off a single gene, we call them isoforms--but still consider them the same protein.

While it is true that they are called isoforms, and that obviously they share much the same amino acid sequence, does not mean that this is not an extremely important discovery. It is also a fact that these different proteins are indeed necessary:

In vertebrates, the four A-actin isoforms present in various muscle cells and the B- and Y-actin isoforms present in nonmuscle cells differ at only four or five positions. Although these differences among isoforms seem minor, the isoforms have different functions: A-Actin is associated with contractile structures, and B-actin is at the front of the cell where actin filaments polymerize. From: The Actin Cytoskeleton

In this case the different forms have very important functions. So there is a need for this highly complicated system of alternative gene splicing.

This presents many problems to evolutionary theory of course. The change in one gene can affect several functions for one thing, it is hardly likely that it would be beneficial to all the gene's functions. Furthermore the existence of such multi-purpose genes makes it very unlikely that they could have arisen by random evolutionary means.

The further problem these multi-purpose genes show is that not only do many genes require a system to initiate, regulate, and stop protein production, but that they also need a system to tell them how to make different proteins. Surely developing such an intricate system is not the result of random chance. Surely, such a system is irreducibly complex and a sign of intelligent design.

325 posted on 08/14/2002 7:21:40 PM PDT by gore3000
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To: PatrickHenry
Freezing temperatures in Hell are being reported.

...and you should know!

326 posted on 08/14/2002 7:24:39 PM PDT by gore3000
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To: medved; FourtySeven
My question to you medved is this: Do you really believe the Earth orbited Saturn at one time? Or that humans are the result of genetic engineering? Or that the Grand Canyon is the result of lightning strike(s)?

I saved the weird one for last...

A short answer goes as follows: there is reason to believe that Jupiter and Saturn once comprised a small double star system which we were part of, and that the cosmic disasters you read of in the bible and other antique literature arose from the capture of that system by our present sun and the subsequent chaos which ensued.

Ancient literature described a number of things which we do not see in our present world, including:

All antique religions were astral in nature, the name associations between gods and planets being primordial. Now, if you were to pay some group of primitives in our modern world, such as democrats or evolutionists, to devise an astral religion outright from scratch, they would invariably end up worshipping the sun and the moon. Whatever's in third place in the sky today is WAY back in third place.

The two chieftain gods of all antique religious systems, however, were invariably the planets Jupiter and Saturn, Zeus and Kronos. That makes no sense given present realities, but it gets better.

The littlest bit of reading into antique sources turns up a wealth of information pointing to a different kind of sky in the antique world. Writers like Hesiod and Ovid constantly refer to a golden age prior to the flood as an age of Kronos (Saturn), when Kronos was the "king of heaven", and they refer to antediluvians as "children of Kronos". The languge is fairly simple; the sun is the "king of heaven" now.

Articles in the journals of Assyriology in the early 1900s turned up the fact that virtually all of the names used for the sun in the ancient near east were names which had originally been used for the planet Saturn, and then had been transferred to the sun.

Like I say, this stuff is JUST A THEORY; without owning a time machine, I've got no way of proving any of this to anybody, and you sure as hell do not see me jumping up and down demanding that any of this be taught as a fact in public schools at public expense.

But the simplest possible interpretation of what Hesiod, Plato, Ovid, and numerous others are claiming is that Jupiter and Saturn very recently comprised a small double star system, and that we were part of that system. The flood and the various cosmic disasters you read about in ancient literature amount to descriptions of the mayhem which ensued as that elder system was captured by our present sun and the component bodies began to orbit the sun separately.

Saturn and the Antique System

Egyptian enclosed crescent (prototype cosmic ship) and Babylonian Shamesh petroglyph

What the artists actually saw...

The Shamesh glyph is, in fact, the same thing as the familiar Islamic icon which is normally taken to be a star-moon icon. In real life, that cannot happen, i.e. a star will never be seen inside the crescent of the moon, simply because the unlit part of the moon will occult the star.

Egyptian artwork consistently replicates the cosmic alignment shown above as noted in several of the articles linked below. Here, the Mars/Venus alignment shows up on a piece of jewelry (shen-bond). The alignment which Egyptian and near Eastern art depicts consistently shows Earth, Mars, and Venus lined up in a sort of a stack below the gas giant. This is similar to what we saw when the string of comets followed eachother like a shish-kabob into Jupter a few years back.

The Saturn Myths: A brief introduction to what is emerging as the grand unifying theory of catastrophism.

Images courtesy of Kronia Communications

At this point, the authors of several of the variants of a Saturn thesis have their own WWW sites and generally do a better job of expounding those theories than I can. What I basically attempt to provide is a sort of a businessman's executive summary or big-picture view of the manner in which a number of the various puzzle pieces fit together, including the question of Jaynsian anomalies. My own general estimation of Saturn theory variants at this point is as follow: I believe that Ev Cochrane and David Talbott have done a better job of excavating and describing the Saturn system (the age just prior to ours) than other authors have. Nonetheless, they do not offer a plausible theory of how anything like the Saturn system could have come about in the first place or any sort of a general system of cosmology; Al DeGrazia and Earl Milton do that, and their "Solaria Binaria" is therefore my choice for first book to read on the topic. The fact that it can be had in PDF form for $10 along with twenty some other published works doesn't hurt.


Further Thoughts on the Topic

The Ship of Heaven: Egyptian Iconography and the antique system.

Petroglyphs: Images of the former sun on the walls of caves.

Intimations of an Alien Sky: Article on the antique system (Cardona)

Darkness and the Deep: Dwardu Cardona on the early stages of the antique system

Harold Tresman's Version of this whole business; an article posted to talk.origins, summer 1995. Geological Genesis, (C)1993 Harold Tresman, Chronology & Catastrophism Workshop (ISSN: 0951-5985) August 1993 Number1.

From a dwarf to a giant and back again, over and over: Ev Cochrane on the recurring myth of the warrior-hero who changes his size periodically.

Green Star: Egyptian descriptions of the green sun which they worshipped.

Other Catastrophism Links

I hope that helps some. Like I say, I don't go around talking about this one out of the blue or unasked and you can see why, I mean, this is more than lot of folks can deal with. The Saturn Story was going to be Chapter II of Worlds in Collision but Velikovsky never got around to it. Chapter I kept American academia freaked out for the remainder of his life, which he spent trying to defend the general theory of historical catastrophism.

327 posted on 08/14/2002 7:25:21 PM PDT by medved
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To: Tribune7
"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often ... "

I know, I know. Ol' PH gave a great speech. I love the guy. Still, take the test. Show me the annotated Constitution with references to the Bible. Show me the passages in the Federalist Papers that give the scriptural justification for the various provisions in the Constitution. Surely, if you're correct, it shouldn't be difficult to do.

328 posted on 08/14/2002 7:28:20 PM PDT by PatrickHenry
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To: BMCDA
Only that religion can be useful sometimes. Especially for people who need the carrot and the stick in order to not run amok.

No doubt that some people do, and I think that is why you agreed with that view.

The reason why I engage in discussions on this topic with other people here on FR is to show that a lack of belief in a god does not automatically make you a rapist, thief or even a murderer.

I really do not think that anyone is saying that all atheists are mass murderers. Some no doubt can be as moral as Christians and more so than some Christians. However, an atheistic society will be much more likely to engage in such activities than one that is not. A society where Christians predominate is not very likely to engage in activities which destroy life so wantonly - and I think your quotes support that view.

329 posted on 08/14/2002 7:37:03 PM PDT by gore3000
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To: PatrickHenry
But they weren't founded on Christ's teachings.

And the United States is? Really?

It was originally. Alexis de Tocqueville noted that the United States was the first truly Christian country in that its laws and customs actually conformed more or less to the teachings of Jesus Christ. He noted that European nations while nominally Christian, were anything but Christian in their manner of government and in their customs.

330 posted on 08/14/2002 7:39:02 PM PDT by medved
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To: FourtySeven; gore3000
A question suggests itself: Where does Christ or Christianity fit into this picture of an ancient world reconstructed from mythology texts and petroglyphs and what not?

Basically, ancient religion in the period after the flood amounted to attempts to communicate with the spirit world directly using prophecy, oracles, idolatry, divination, electrical gadgetry such as the ark of the covenant, and whatever else one could dream up. A copy of Julian Jaynes' "Origin of Consciousness" is your best starting point for understanding all of that stuff. It reached a point at which none of that kind of stuff worked at all any more, and the tendency towards idolatry in particular turned the world into an insane assylum for a period of several hundred years. The people were hearing real voices from the stupid idols and sacraficing children and fighting wars at the behest of those idols. That is not a formula for happiness.

There are no prophets in our age. Religion in our own age has to be based on faith and upon a knowledge of God's laws, and that is what Christ brought to this planet. His religion survives precisely because the message he brought to Earth is correct and in harmony with what is basically in the soul of man. Christs teachings will still be here in another 2000 years.

In 200 years, nobody will know who Chuck Darwin was.

331 posted on 08/14/2002 7:53:16 PM PDT by medved
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To: js1138
Blind belief is only of benefit when jumping off a cliff with other visually-impaired idealists, or when a hankerin' for KoolAid (TM) gets the better of you....

I agree with you that blind allegience to a belief system, whether it be religious or scientific in nature, solves nothing. I agree with you that careful thought is a necessary adjunct to reasoned debate.

I'm a firm believer in FreeThink, and on that basis, I have no quarrel with you.

That, however, was not the thrust of my original post to you.

My complaint, as it were, was with the condescending question about Bruno directed at some poor sap who didn't have the foggiest notion of who he was, and more importantly, didn't care.

It wasn't just directed at one person, though. The question, totally irrelevant to the discussion at hand, was a mean-spirited jibe of snobbish arrogance aimed at those who don't agree with you, and don't know who your Moses is. Such a feeble attempt at displaying airs of superiority over something as superfluous as whether Bruno died on a leap year or not does not further this discussion. It enlightens no one, and brings absolutely nothing to the table.

I will grant you that there are lots of people in the opposite camp who don't hesitate to stoop to such manners. They waste bandwidth, they waste intellectual capital, but most importantly, they waste our time.

My point on this rant is, becoming like them does not really become you. As one FreeThinker to another, I beseech you - just stay on topic, and we'll be fine.

CA....

332 posted on 08/14/2002 8:53:14 PM PDT by Chances Are
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To: FourtySeven
I'm really just curious right now more than anything. I can see you have your hands full debating others, so, just simple yes or no answers will suffice, thanks.

You won't get an answer from him. He typically runs and hides when pressed for such admissions.

333 posted on 08/14/2002 9:08:40 PM PDT by Scully
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To: Junior
the Grand Canyon was formed by a lightning bolt despite the lack of fulgarites,/p>

Despite the fact that nearly ALL of the Grand Canyon is composed of silica quartz.

334 posted on 08/14/2002 9:09:44 PM PDT by Scully
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To: All
D'oh! Too late in the evening. I meant silica SANDSTONE. Sorry.
335 posted on 08/14/2002 9:12:12 PM PDT by Scully
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To: PatrickHenry
Show me the passages in the Federalist Papers that give the scriptural justification

I can't think of any in the Federalist Papers. OTOH, it's hard to deny the influence of the Bible concerning the Constitution (and Declaration of Independence.)

It is impossible to overstate how important the Judeo-Christian tradition was IN guiding the Founders' deliberations. Yet, in recent years, we've virtually ignored this aspect of our history. This is from a July 2 Linda Chavez column:

As scholar Michael Novak points out in his excellent little book "On Two Wings: Humble Faith and Common Sense at the American Founding," "Professor Donald Lutz counted 3,154 citations in the writings of the founders; of these nearly 1,100 references (34 percent) are to the Bible, and about 300 each to Montesquieu and Blackstone, followed at considerable distance by Locke and Hume and Plutarch."

Now let's take a look at Blackstone in second place. Blackstone's Commentaries and lectures were big sellers in the Colonies. He's the one that perhaps best articulated the concept of Natural Law:

Man, considered as a creature, must necessarily be subject to the laws of his creator, for he is entirely a dependent being. A being, independent of any other, has no rule to pursue, but such as he prescribes to himself; but a state of dependence will inevitably oblige the inferior to take the will of him, on whom he depends, as the rule of his conduct: not indeed in every particular, but in all those points wherein his dependence consists. This principle therefore has more or less extent and effect, in proportion as the superiority of the one and the dependence of the other is greater or less, absolute or limited. And consequently, as man depends absolutely upon his maker for every thing, it is necessary that he should in all points conform to his maker's will.

This will of his maker is called the law of nature. For as God, when he created matter, and endued it with a principle of mobility, established certain rules for the perpetual direction of that motion; so, when he created man, and endued him with freewill to conduct himself in all parts of life, he laid down certain immutable laws of human nature, whereby that freewill is in some degree regulated and restrained, and gave him also the faculty of reason to discover the purport of those laws.

Considering the creator only as a being of infinite power, he was able unquestionably to have prescribed whatever laws he pleased to his creature, man, however unjust or severe. But as be is also a being of infinite wisdom, he has laid down only such laws as were founded in those relations of justice, that existed in the nature of things antecedent to any positive precept. These are the eternal, immutable laws of good and evil, to which the creator himself in all his dispensations conforms; and which he has enabled human reason to discover, so far as they are necessary for the conduct of human actions. Such among others are these principles: that we should live honestly, should hurt nobody, and should render to every one his due; to which three general precepts Justinian has reduced the whole doctrine of law.

This quote echos the Patrick Henry quote: "Christianity is part of the laws of England" but stated that the law of England "gives liberty, rightly understood, that is, protection to a jew, turk, or a heathen, as well as to those who profess the true religion of Christ."

I think it's safe to say America is founded on Christian values.

336 posted on 08/14/2002 10:44:51 PM PDT by Tribune7
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To: Scully
I'm really just curious right now more than anything. I can see you have your hands full debating others, so, just simple yes or no answers will suffice, thanks.

You won't get an answer from him. He typically runs and hides when pressed for such admissions.

This after I posted (318, 320, 327) replies to all three parts of the question? What are you trying to accomplish? I mean, are you trying to convince anybody that those replies do not exist or are you merely trying to make yourself look maximally stupid?

337 posted on 08/15/2002 4:31:27 AM PDT by medved
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To: medved
Pardon me, when I typed my reply I had not read the entire thread. I had no idea that you would actually take on a PhD in biochemistry and molecular biology by reposting your "maximally stupid" hypotheses.
338 posted on 08/15/2002 5:27:05 AM PDT by Scully
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To: Scully
Pardon me, when I typed my reply I had not read the entire thread. I had no idea that you would actually take on a PhD in biochemistry and molecular biology by reposting your "maximally stupid" hypotheses.

There ARE people in the world who manage to earn advanced degrees in cellular biology and similar topics without allowing themselves to be brainwashed in the process

339 posted on 08/15/2002 5:44:37 AM PDT by medved
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To: Chances Are
just stay on topic, and we'll be fine...

Your point is well taken.

But I get lured into responding to those who believe that religion is a prerequisite to moral behavior. Or that the uses of scientific knowledge are relevant to its truthfulness.

340 posted on 08/15/2002 7:20:04 AM PDT by js1138
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