Posted on 05/03/2014 7:07:17 AM PDT by GonzoII
Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower. When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side. But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended. He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful. But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.
Clearly faith and works of faith (fruit) are intertwined. One who is saved must persevere. One who is saved must have fruit.
The seed is the Gospel itself, which is preached openly to all. But it is effectual only in the sheep of God. Hence why Augustine points out that the gift of perseverance is reserved only for the elect, while others necessarily must fall away:
“But of such as these [the Elect] none perishes, because of all that the Father has given Him, He will lose none. John 6:39 Whoever, therefore, is of these does not perish at all; nor was any who perishes ever of these. For which reason it is said, They went out from among us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would certainly have continued with us. 1 John 2:19”. (Augustine, Treatise on the Predestination of the Saints)
“I assert, therefore, that the perseverance by which we persevere in Christ even to the end is the gift of God; and I call that the end by which is finished that life wherein alone there is peril of falling.” (Augustine, On the Perseverance of the Saints)
Here is the verse Augustine is referencing in its full:
1Jn 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.
Any who belonged to Christ must necessarily stay, and those who leave are never described as having once been of us, but of leaving us at some point because they were "not of us" to begin with.
Not sure why you wrote that; I believe I copied John 6:70-71 (KJV) correctly.
I meant that the wording of the verse proved you wrong, not that you copied and pasted incorrectly.
I see no problem with Augustine's explanation but I would word yours differently like this:
The seed is the Gospel itself, which is preached openly to all. Those in whom it is effectual are Messiah's sheep. Those that persevere are the elect, while others fall away:
" Eph_2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
The 'that' here is in reference to faith"
This is wrong. In English, it can look that way. However, in the Greek, it is an impossible interpretation because the genders are wrong.
And that (και τουτο — kai touto). Neuter, not feminine ταυτη — tautē and so refers not to πιστις — pistis (feminine) or to χαρις — charis (feminine also), but to the act of being saved by grace conditioned on faith on our part. Paul shows that salvation does not have its source (εχ υμων — ex humōn out of you) in men, but from God. Besides, it is God‘s gift (δωρον — dōron) and not the result of our work.
http://www.studylight.org/commentaries/rwp/view.cgi?bk=48&ch=2
The Greek makes it obvious that the word "that" in the English translation refers to salvation, not faith.
The Greek makes no such thing clear, and the meaning must be derived from the context:
"In this verse, to what does the word "that" refer to? Adam Clarke, Wesley & company say that it is neuter plural and "Faith" is feminine hence it cannot refer to faith, (Such an admission would destroy their theological system.) However "Grace" is also feminine as is "Salvation"... The problem is that there is NO precise referent. Grace is feminine. Faith is feminine. And even Salvation (as a noun) is feminine. Yet it must be one of these three at least, and maybe more than one, or all three in conjunction. Since all three come from God and not from man, the latter might seem the more likely. However, it is a tautology to say salvation and grace are "nor of yourselves," and in that case it certainly looks more like the passage is really pointing out that man cannot even take credit for his own act of faith, but that faith was itself created by God and implanted in us that we might believe (i.e. the normal Calvinistic position)." (From John Gill's Commentary on Eph 2:8).
No Catholics have come out and said all those QUOTES I posted were BOGUS, yet; have they?
John Gill & you are both wrong.
"so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast."
"The thing to note here is that the "that" that so many think refers to faith cannot because it is a neuter pronoun that refers back to the neuter noun "riches" and to that noun's apposition "gift," also singular neuter. It doesn't refer to "faith" because, if it did, it would have been feminine in gender."
Sorry. If Paul wanted it to refer to faith, he could have made it so. He did not. It is no use pretending otherwise. Not for Gill, and not for you.
"Even faith, [Paul] says, is not from us. For if the Lord had not come, if he had not called us, how should we have been able to believe? “For how,” [Paul] says, “shall they believe if they have not heard?” (Rom. 10:14). So even the act of faith is not self-initiated. It is, he says, “the gift of God”"(John Chrysostom, Homily on Ephesians 2:8)
No.
Perhaps you would prefer Calvin’s commentary?
“And here we must advert to a very common error in the interpretation of this passage. Many persons restrict the word gift to faith alone. But Paul is only repeating in other words the former sentiment. His meaning is, not that faith is the gift of God, but that salvation is given to us by God, or, that we obtain it by the gift of God.”
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/calvin/calcom41.iv.iii.iii.html
“These charts, then, are designed to demonstrate that touto in Ephesians 2:8 cannot refer to “faith” as if Paul meant to say, “this faith is a gift from God.” Touto can only refer back to the previously mentioned salvation that comes by grace through faith.”
I know you won’t read the full 13 page analysis, but the link to it is here for those who want to see both sides:
http://chafer.nextmeta.com/files/v12n2_4is_faith_a_gift_from_god_according.pdf
However, Chrysostom is correct when he writes, “So even the act of faith is not self-initiated. It is, he says, “the gift of God”.
Faith is not self-initiated. We do not reach up to God. God first reaches down to us. It is GOD’S initiative, not ours. Without God acting first - prevenient grace - no one would be saved. However, believing - and believing someone else is what faith MEANS - is a response we CAN make to God’s initiative, or not.
In Ephesians 2:8, “gift” does NOT refer to faith. Period. Paul could have used a different word, and then it WOULD have referred to faith - but that is not what Paul was trying to say, in the Greek.
Nor is saving faith ever referred to as something God gives to us regardless of our will. Like much of Calvin’s theology, it is simply not present in the New Testament.
You are free to your opinion, of course, and there are opinions on both sides, but I am inclined to stick Chrysostom for the obvious reasons. Calvin's disagreeing with us did not make him cease to be a Calvinist either, so I am not too disturbed over the matter (lol).
“there are opinions on both sides”
Not really. It is dishonest for anyone to try to force a connection between faith and ‘this’ in Ephesians 2:8. That anyone tries is evidence that there really IS no scriptural support for claiming faith is something given to us by God after regeneration, per Calvin’s unsupported theory of predestination.
There is a way Paul could have said that, in the Greek. He did not. He instead referred to the plan of salvation as a gift. In fact, Jesus rebuked people for not having faith, which could hardly be the case if God refused to give it to them:
Mar 16:14 Afterward he appeared to the eleven themselves as they were reclining at table, and he rebuked them for their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they had not believed those who saw him after he had risen.
You're really pushing it. You would have me to believe that a Greek speaker was being dishonest, though in that age there was none of the controversy over the issue. Do you read and speak Koine Greek?
I have also already posted the words and reasons as excerpts for anyone who cannot be bothered to read 13 page articles on Greek. However:
"What does the text say? The word in question is the demonstrative pronoun “houtos” in its nominative, masculine and singular form. The demonstrative pronoun is used “to demonstrate” or “point out” a particular point. The word in the Greek New Testament is “touto,” which is a nominative, neuter singular demonstrative pronoun. If you did not have any English grammar, this may be difficult, but with a little patience and pursuit of the Lord, I trust you will be able to understand this. Please post a comment if you have ANY questions. All of this is explained to beginning, first year Greek students.
J. Gresham Machen, professor of New Testament in Westminster Theological Seminary, teaches that “Adjectives, including the article, agree with the nouns that they modify, in gender, number, and case.”1 I make that particular quote to show the precise way in which the Greek New Testament recorded word usage and the three gender forms (masculine, feminine and neuter) along with the case endings (nominative, genitive, dative and accusative), which all help in making the Koine Greek language a much more precise language than English. That is for adjectives, but the word in question, “touto” is not an adjective, it is a demonstrative pronoun.
Machen then teaches regarding demonstrative pronouns. He said, “houtos and ekeinos are frequently used with nouns. When they are so used, the noun with which they are used has the article, and they themselves stand in the predicate, not the attributive, position ($$ 68-74).”2 His reference to paragraphs 68-74 is an explanation of how the adjective is used with nouns. In other words, the demonstrative pronoun will agree with its modified nouns in gender, number and case. The reason why this is very significant is that the word for “faith” is pisteos and is feminine. Therefore the demonstrative pronoun cannot refer to faith, because it is neuter! To say that “that” refers to faith, is to reject first year level Greek learning. However, if a person says the sky is black enough times, people will eventually believe the sky is black, even though it is blue.
Eugene Van Ness Goetchius, professor of New Testament at Episcopal Theological School, agrees. He wrote, “The Greek demonstratives may modify nouns and, when they do so, they agree with nouns in case, number, and gender.”3
Paul L. Kaufman, professor of New Testament at Western Conservative Baptist Seminary made similar arguments to the above. First he wrote, “Adjectives must agree in gender, number and case with the nouns which they modify…Note carefully the gender of all nouns in this lesson [his emphasis].”4
Again the word in question is a demonstrative pronoun and it is important to note these professors (who come from varying theological backgrounds), are consistent in what they are saying about the translation and interpretation of the Greek language. Secondly, he comments,
In Greek, word order is of much less importance and does not in fact show word relations at all. (Emphasis may, however, be indicated by placing a word either first or last in its clause thus giving it what is called the emphatic position). Word relationships are shown in Greek by the case endings (and by prepositions which came in to make the basic case idea even clearer). The translation into English is made by observing the endings which indicate the word relations rather than by noting the order.5
Kaufman states that the key to understanding word order and relationships is understanding the word endings, which are found in first year Greek declension tables. These are easily understood by a brand new student.
Additionally, Kaufman comments regarding the demonstrative pronoun (which is what the word in question is). He wrote, “Both houtos and ekeinos are also frequently used with nouns and when they are so used, the noun with which they are used has the article, and the demonstrative pronouns themselves stand in the predicate position [his emphasis].”6 The predicate must agree in gender, number and case.7 Why would someone not understand this? Because they are imposing their theology upon the written Word of God!
H.E. Dana and Julius R. Mantey, professors of New Testament Interpretation at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary and Northern Baptist Theological Seminary, respectively, explain the demonstrative pronoun (the word in question) under “The Adjective.” They wrote, “The adjective agrees with the noun it qualifies in gender, number, and case.”8 They further explain specifically regarding the demonstrative pronoun, “houtos may sometimes refer “not to the noun locally nearest, but the one more remote,” but it will generally be found upon close scrutiny that the antecedent of the houtos “was mentally the nearest, the most present to the writer’s thought” (W. 157). Thus it does not necessarily denote that which is physically adjacent, but that which is immediately present to the thinking of the writer.”9 This fits perfectly with Ephesians 2:8, because, while the noun to which touto refers is elliptical (which means it is not specifically recorded), it is the main subject of the verb sozo- which is the subject of the first clause in Ephesians 2:8.
Interestingly, Dana and Mantey make a comment regarding the relative pronoun. The relative pronoun is a pronoun that expands the noun in question and agrees with the “antecedent [noun] in gender and number, but not in case [his emphasis].”10 This is perfect Greek, understood by first year Greek students, because the case of the relative pronoun, which initiates a relative clause, “is determined by its relation to the clause with which it occurs.”11
A.T. Robertson, professor of Interpretation of the New Testament in the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, describes the demonstrative pronoun under “Pronouns.” He wrote, “In general, like other adjectives, houtos agrees with its substantive in gender and number, whether predicate or attributive.”12 Then he happens to use a practical example of Ephesians 2:8. He wrote, “In Eph. 2:8, Τῇ γὰρ χάριτί ἐστε σεσῳσμένοι διὰ πίστεως· καὶ τοῦτο οὐκ ἐξ ὑμῶν, there is no reference to pisteos in touto, but rather to the idea of salvation in the clause before (my emphasis underlined).”13
These are the teachings of six Greek professors, who come from different theological views, yet all teach the same thing about the Greek language. The word “that” cannot refer to the word “faith.” The word “that” is neuter and the word “faith” is feminine. It is impossible to say from Ephesians 2:8 that the gift of God refers to faith. If someone uses this text to support their theology that faith is a gift of God, they are making a theological view from a false premise."
IOW, you do not have any real grounds for your confidence. It's just sound and fury.
"Grammatically, neuter demonstrative pronouns, even in the most precise classical Greek, often refer to feminized nouns. Hence it is false to say that touto [that] cannot mean faith." (Gordon Clark, Ephesians (Trinity Foundation), p. 73)
I make that particular quote to show the precise way in which the Greek New Testament recorded word usage and the three gender forms (masculine, feminine and neuter) along with the case endings (nominative, genitive, dative and accusative), which all help in making the Koine Greek language a much more precise language than English.
This fellow is overreaching. Wallace, who actually agrees with the Arminian reading of that verse, in his Greek grammar text states: "The issues here are complex and cannot be solved by grammar alone" (Daniel B. Wallace, Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics: An Exegetical Syntax of the New Testament (Zondervan, 1996), p. 335).
To declare unequivocally that the language cannot be used that way, when even agreeing experts note there is no such clarity on the matter, is quite silly. The matter must be resolved by appealing to the meaning. If we state that touto is in reference to "grace" or the "riches of grace," it is repeating what is already obvious. I suspect that is why Chrysostom did not flinch when he read it. Augustine, by the way, gives the same reading:
"And he says that a man is justified by faith and not by works, because faith itself is first given, from which may be obtained other things which are specially characterized as works, in which a man may live righteously. For he himself also says, "By grace you are saved through faith; and this not of yourselves; but it is the gift of God," (Eph 2:8) —that is to say, "And in saying 'through faith,' even faith itself is not of yourselves, but is God's gift." "Not of works," he says, "lest any man should be lifted up." (Augustine, On the Predestination of the Saints, Ch. 12)
Though Augustine would have been reading this in Latin, and not Greek, so it loses some of its strength.
So, then, are you confident that everyone has actually gotten a "chance?"
Because God is not willing that any perish but all come to repentance. If that's His desire, then how could He not give someone at least one opportunity to respond to Him?
Exactly my point. Everyone has a chance.
Even in English, *faith* is not the subject of the sentence. It is part of a prepositional phrase and prepositional phrases are not the subject.
So *this* must be referring to the subject of the sentence, which is either *grace* or *saved*, and I’m leaning towards *grace*. Both *grace* and *saved* are gifts from God.
Off to church.
Later.....
“Me: No, I do not speak greek.
You [who obviously do not speak Greek either]: IOW, you do not have any real grounds for your confidence. It’s just sound and fury.”
It is sad that some Calvinists will resort to dishonesty in an attempt to twist the plain meaning of scripture.
“To declare unequivocally that the language cannot be used that way, when even agreeing experts note there is no such clarity on the matter, is quite silly. The matter must be resolved by appealing to the meaning.”
No. This is a dishonest approach to studying scripture. Greek has a precise structure. Because of how it is set up, the word “that” in Ephesians 2:8 cannot apply to “faith”, since doing so would have required a different word:
“If Paul wanted to refer to pistis (“faith”), he could have written the feminine haute, instead of the neuter touto, and his meaning would have been clear. Why would he change the gender if he wanted to refer to pistis?”
“Grammatically speaking, there is no agreement between “faith” and “gift.” Faith (pisteos) in the Greek Testament is a feminine form, while “gift” (doron) is neuter gender. The “gift” is not “faith.”
Some have objected to this argument, contending that the Greek noun for “salvation” is also feminine, thus it cannot be the antecedent of “gift.” While it is true that the Greek noun, “salvation,” is a feminine form, the verbal construction found here used in connection with a neuter pronoun (“this”) requires that the antecedent must also be neuter, thus, “salvation” [understood], not “faith” (see: Lockhart, 86; Cottrell, 200).
Professor Arthur Patzia of Fuller Theological Seminary, who believes, “theologically” speaking, that faith is a gift, acknowledges that “the Greek sentence [Eph. 2:8] does not permit such an identification, because the two words differ grammatically” (185).”
I cannot force anyone to accept using standard grammar (for Greek) when interpreting the New Testament, but I can certainly conclude that those who ignore it are not pursuing the truth.
Frankly, Puny, this will be my last post to you on this thread - which, I know, I’ve said before. When someone values their theology over the plain meaning of scripture, there isn’t anything left to discuss. This is not a gray area. It is very clear, in the Greek.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.