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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans
One last comment from me on this thread:

" Eph_2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

The 'that' here is in reference to faith"

This is wrong. In English, it can look that way. However, in the Greek, it is an impossible interpretation because the genders are wrong.

And that (και τουτο — kai touto). Neuter, not feminine ταυτη — tautē and so refers not to πιστις — pistis (feminine) or to χαρις — charis (feminine also), but to the act of being saved by grace conditioned on faith on our part. Paul shows that salvation does not have its source (εχ υμων — ex humōn out of you) in men, but from God. Besides, it is God‘s gift (δωρον — dōron) and not the result of our work.

http://www.studylight.org/commentaries/rwp/view.cgi?bk=48&ch=2

The Greek makes it obvious that the word "that" in the English translation refers to salvation, not faith.

146 posted on 05/10/2014 4:17:42 PM PDT by Mr Rogers (I sooooo miss America!)
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To: Mr Rogers; metmom; Elsie; Gamecock; .45 Long Colt
The Greek makes it obvious that the word "that" in the English translation refers to salvation, not faith.

The Greek makes no such thing clear, and the meaning must be derived from the context:

"In this verse, to what does the word "that" refer to? Adam Clarke, Wesley & company say that it is neuter plural and "Faith" is feminine hence it cannot refer to faith, (Such an admission would destroy their theological system.) However "Grace" is also feminine as is "Salvation"... The problem is that there is NO precise referent. Grace is feminine. Faith is feminine. And even Salvation (as a noun) is feminine. Yet it must be one of these three at least, and maybe more than one, or all three in conjunction. Since all three come from God and not from man, the latter might seem the more likely. However, it is a tautology to say salvation and grace are "nor of yourselves," and in that case it certainly looks more like the passage is really pointing out that man cannot even take credit for his own act of faith, but that faith was itself created by God and implanted in us that we might believe (i.e. the normal Calvinistic position)." (From John Gill's Commentary on Eph 2:8).

147 posted on 05/10/2014 4:43:36 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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