IOW, you do not have any real grounds for your confidence. It's just sound and fury.
"Grammatically, neuter demonstrative pronouns, even in the most precise classical Greek, often refer to feminized nouns. Hence it is false to say that touto [that] cannot mean faith." (Gordon Clark, Ephesians (Trinity Foundation), p. 73)
I make that particular quote to show the precise way in which the Greek New Testament recorded word usage and the three gender forms (masculine, feminine and neuter) along with the case endings (nominative, genitive, dative and accusative), which all help in making the Koine Greek language a much more precise language than English.
This fellow is overreaching. Wallace, who actually agrees with the Arminian reading of that verse, in his Greek grammar text states: "The issues here are complex and cannot be solved by grammar alone" (Daniel B. Wallace, Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics: An Exegetical Syntax of the New Testament (Zondervan, 1996), p. 335).
To declare unequivocally that the language cannot be used that way, when even agreeing experts note there is no such clarity on the matter, is quite silly. The matter must be resolved by appealing to the meaning. If we state that touto is in reference to "grace" or the "riches of grace," it is repeating what is already obvious. I suspect that is why Chrysostom did not flinch when he read it. Augustine, by the way, gives the same reading:
"And he says that a man is justified by faith and not by works, because faith itself is first given, from which may be obtained other things which are specially characterized as works, in which a man may live righteously. For he himself also says, "By grace you are saved through faith; and this not of yourselves; but it is the gift of God," (Eph 2:8) —that is to say, "And in saying 'through faith,' even faith itself is not of yourselves, but is God's gift." "Not of works," he says, "lest any man should be lifted up." (Augustine, On the Predestination of the Saints, Ch. 12)
Though Augustine would have been reading this in Latin, and not Greek, so it loses some of its strength.
“Me: No, I do not speak greek.
You [who obviously do not speak Greek either]: IOW, you do not have any real grounds for your confidence. It’s just sound and fury.”
It is sad that some Calvinists will resort to dishonesty in an attempt to twist the plain meaning of scripture.
“To declare unequivocally that the language cannot be used that way, when even agreeing experts note there is no such clarity on the matter, is quite silly. The matter must be resolved by appealing to the meaning.”
No. This is a dishonest approach to studying scripture. Greek has a precise structure. Because of how it is set up, the word “that” in Ephesians 2:8 cannot apply to “faith”, since doing so would have required a different word:
“If Paul wanted to refer to pistis (“faith”), he could have written the feminine haute, instead of the neuter touto, and his meaning would have been clear. Why would he change the gender if he wanted to refer to pistis?”
“Grammatically speaking, there is no agreement between “faith” and “gift.” Faith (pisteos) in the Greek Testament is a feminine form, while “gift” (doron) is neuter gender. The “gift” is not “faith.”
Some have objected to this argument, contending that the Greek noun for “salvation” is also feminine, thus it cannot be the antecedent of “gift.” While it is true that the Greek noun, “salvation,” is a feminine form, the verbal construction found here used in connection with a neuter pronoun (“this”) requires that the antecedent must also be neuter, thus, “salvation” [understood], not “faith” (see: Lockhart, 86; Cottrell, 200).
Professor Arthur Patzia of Fuller Theological Seminary, who believes, “theologically” speaking, that faith is a gift, acknowledges that “the Greek sentence [Eph. 2:8] does not permit such an identification, because the two words differ grammatically” (185).”
I cannot force anyone to accept using standard grammar (for Greek) when interpreting the New Testament, but I can certainly conclude that those who ignore it are not pursuing the truth.
Frankly, Puny, this will be my last post to you on this thread - which, I know, I’ve said before. When someone values their theology over the plain meaning of scripture, there isn’t anything left to discuss. This is not a gray area. It is very clear, in the Greek.