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To: Mr Rogers; metmom; Elsie; Gamecock; .45 Long Colt
Not really. It is dishonest for anyone to try to force a connection between faith and ‘this’ in Ephesians 2:8... There is a way Paul could have said that, in the Greek. He did not.

You're really pushing it. You would have me to believe that a Greek speaker was being dishonest, though in that age there was none of the controversy over the issue. Do you read and speak Koine Greek?

154 posted on 05/10/2014 9:47:09 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans; metmom; Elsie; Gamecock; .45 Long Colt
No, I do not speak greek. I do, however, know how to read, and I've already linked to detailed discussions of how the Greek limits what the meaning can be. It really is very simple. If Paul wanted to link 'this' to faith, he could have done so. He used a different word. That word, due to it characteristics, links 'this' to the overall plan of salvation, and specifically does NOT link it to faith.

I have also already posted the words and reasons as excerpts for anyone who cannot be bothered to read 13 page articles on Greek. However:

"What does the text say? The word in question is the demonstrative pronoun “houtos” in its nominative, masculine and singular form. The demonstrative pronoun is used “to demonstrate” or “point out” a particular point. The word in the Greek New Testament is “touto,” which is a nominative, neuter singular demonstrative pronoun. If you did not have any English grammar, this may be difficult, but with a little patience and pursuit of the Lord, I trust you will be able to understand this. Please post a comment if you have ANY questions. All of this is explained to beginning, first year Greek students.

J. Gresham Machen, professor of New Testament in Westminster Theological Seminary, teaches that “Adjectives, including the article, agree with the nouns that they modify, in gender, number, and case.”1 I make that particular quote to show the precise way in which the Greek New Testament recorded word usage and the three gender forms (masculine, feminine and neuter) along with the case endings (nominative, genitive, dative and accusative), which all help in making the Koine Greek language a much more precise language than English. That is for adjectives, but the word in question, “touto” is not an adjective, it is a demonstrative pronoun.

Machen then teaches regarding demonstrative pronouns. He said, “houtos and ekeinos are frequently used with nouns. When they are so used, the noun with which they are used has the article, and they themselves stand in the predicate, not the attributive, position ($$ 68-74).”2 His reference to paragraphs 68-74 is an explanation of how the adjective is used with nouns. In other words, the demonstrative pronoun will agree with its modified nouns in gender, number and case. The reason why this is very significant is that the word for “faith” is pisteos and is feminine. Therefore the demonstrative pronoun cannot refer to faith, because it is neuter! To say that “that” refers to faith, is to reject first year level Greek learning. However, if a person says the sky is black enough times, people will eventually believe the sky is black, even though it is blue.

Eugene Van Ness Goetchius, professor of New Testament at Episcopal Theological School, agrees. He wrote, “The Greek demonstratives may modify nouns and, when they do so, they agree with nouns in case, number, and gender.”3

Paul L. Kaufman, professor of New Testament at Western Conservative Baptist Seminary made similar arguments to the above. First he wrote, “Adjectives must agree in gender, number and case with the nouns which they modify…Note carefully the gender of all nouns in this lesson [his emphasis].”4

Again the word in question is a demonstrative pronoun and it is important to note these professors (who come from varying theological backgrounds), are consistent in what they are saying about the translation and interpretation of the Greek language. Secondly, he comments,

In Greek, word order is of much less importance and does not in fact show word relations at all. (Emphasis may, however, be indicated by placing a word either first or last in its clause thus giving it what is called the emphatic position). Word relationships are shown in Greek by the case endings (and by prepositions which came in to make the basic case idea even clearer). The translation into English is made by observing the endings which indicate the word relations rather than by noting the order.5

Kaufman states that the key to understanding word order and relationships is understanding the word endings, which are found in first year Greek declension tables. These are easily understood by a brand new student.

Additionally, Kaufman comments regarding the demonstrative pronoun (which is what the word in question is). He wrote, “Both houtos and ekeinos are also frequently used with nouns and when they are so used, the noun with which they are used has the article, and the demonstrative pronouns themselves stand in the predicate position [his emphasis].”6 The predicate must agree in gender, number and case.7 Why would someone not understand this? Because they are imposing their theology upon the written Word of God!

H.E. Dana and Julius R. Mantey, professors of New Testament Interpretation at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary and Northern Baptist Theological Seminary, respectively, explain the demonstrative pronoun (the word in question) under “The Adjective.” They wrote, “The adjective agrees with the noun it qualifies in gender, number, and case.”8 They further explain specifically regarding the demonstrative pronoun, “houtos may sometimes refer “not to the noun locally nearest, but the one more remote,” but it will generally be found upon close scrutiny that the antecedent of the houtos “was mentally the nearest, the most present to the writer’s thought” (W. 157). Thus it does not necessarily denote that which is physically adjacent, but that which is immediately present to the thinking of the writer.”9 This fits perfectly with Ephesians 2:8, because, while the noun to which touto refers is elliptical (which means it is not specifically recorded), it is the main subject of the verb sozo- which is the subject of the first clause in Ephesians 2:8.

Interestingly, Dana and Mantey make a comment regarding the relative pronoun. The relative pronoun is a pronoun that expands the noun in question and agrees with the “antecedent [noun] in gender and number, but not in case [his emphasis].”10 This is perfect Greek, understood by first year Greek students, because the case of the relative pronoun, which initiates a relative clause, “is determined by its relation to the clause with which it occurs.”11

A.T. Robertson, professor of Interpretation of the New Testament in the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, describes the demonstrative pronoun under “Pronouns.” He wrote, “In general, like other adjectives, houtos agrees with its substantive in gender and number, whether predicate or attributive.”12 Then he happens to use a practical example of Ephesians 2:8. He wrote, “In Eph. 2:8, Τῇ γὰρ χάριτί ἐστε σεσῳσμένοι διὰ πίστεως· καὶ τοῦτο οὐκ ἐξ ὑμῶν, there is no reference to pisteos in touto, but rather to the idea of salvation in the clause before (my emphasis underlined).”13

These are the teachings of six Greek professors, who come from different theological views, yet all teach the same thing about the Greek language. The word “that” cannot refer to the word “faith.” The word “that” is neuter and the word “faith” is feminine. It is impossible to say from Ephesians 2:8 that the gift of God refers to faith. If someone uses this text to support their theology that faith is a gift of God, they are making a theological view from a false premise."

155 posted on 05/10/2014 9:58:50 PM PDT by Mr Rogers (I sooooo miss America!)
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