Posted on 01/01/2009 3:51:01 PM PST by NYer
This exemplifies your extremely flawed Catholic upbringing...A Catholic is born a Catholic...And then a baby is baptized a Catholic...But somewhere along the line, you have to cooperate with God to finish your calling as a Catholic...
And that's not Christianity, that's religion...
Let's go to your socks analogy...In Christianity, nobody gives you socks for Christmas unless you first ask for them...The socks are payed for...They're free if you want them...There is no cooperation of your part...
Jesus doesn't go out and buy the socks to give you once you make the committment to wear them if he does...Jesus doesn't cooperate with you and buy your favorite color 'if you're good...HE'S ALREADY BOUGHT THEM AND PUT THEM UNDER YOUR TREE...THEY'RE THE RIGHT COLOR AND THEY'RE YOURS...JUST HOLD OUT YOUR HAND...
You wrote:
“Cooperate: collaborate: work together on a common enterprise of project”
I already posted a verse that clearly said, “working together...”
Case closed. You lose yet again.
This is easy for me. I am not resisting God.
“You’re going to wear your keyboard out trying to convince yourself that you cooperated with God for your salvation...”
Nope. “Working together with him [Christ], then, we entreat you not to accept the grace of God in vain.” (2 Corinthians 6:1)
“Sorry, but no matter how much nor no matter how many times you try to twist and turn it, You don’t work together with God for your salvation...”
I’m not twisting anything. The Bible says: “Working together with him [Christ], then, we entreat you not to accept the grace of God in vain.” (2 Corinthians 6:1)
“Salvation is a free GIFT...And if you didn’t get it for free, without ‘cooperating’, you didn’t get it...God doesn’t hand it out to people who think they can work (cooperate) for it...”
Salvation is a free gift - and if you don’t cooperate with it you’re damned: “Working together with him [Christ], then, we entreat you not to accept the grace of God in vain.” (2 Corinthians 6:1)
“You use a verse in Matthew for proof that one must turn from sin to attain salvation...”
Actually I used a verse in Matthew to show that the Bible teaches turning away from sin is part of repentance. It is undeniable. Watch how you misconstrue it:
“Problem is, salvation is no where in the verse...”
I never said it was.
This is what I said:
“Now, if you actually look in the Bible, this is what you would discover about repentence: In Matthew 3:7–9, John says to the Pharisees: “You brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath about to come? Therefore, bear fruit worthy of repentance.” What can “bear fruit worthy of repentance,” be other than turn away from your previous actions and attitudes? It is a call to turn away from sin. Sincere repentance requires turning away from sin. John makes this all the more clear when he tells them in verse 8 or 9 that their lists of ancestors won’t help them in this. THEY must do something. THEY must turn away from the sins.”
I never once mentioned salvation in regard to Matthew 3:7-9. Yet you claim I did. Why misconstrue what I so clearly wrote? I wrote: “...about repentence: In Matthew 3:7–9, John says to the Pharisees...” and again “It is a call to turn away from sin. Sincere repentance requires turning away from sin.”
Everything I wrote was clear. Yet you claim I wrote something I never did. Why?
Where in that paragraph do you see me mention either the word or concept of salvation? Where? I hope you have the courage to answer that question. I really, really do.
This is easy for me. But so very difficult for you.
“It’s not even in the vicinity...Those people were confessing their sins with the goal of coming into the Kindgom of Heaven...They were looking for a King, not a Saviour...There was no Grace involved...And there were no Christians...”
I never said anything about salvation in regard to that verse. When you prove I did, your point will be taken seriously. Have at it.
“One thing you guys are consistant about is your choice of scripture...You guys use one verse out of the Pauline epistles, one verse out of Peter, and spend the rest of your time in Matthew, Hebrews, James, and the first few chapters of Acts...”
I, unlike you apparently, consider all scripture inspired and of utility in learning about God and His love of man. I do not subscribe to the bizarre quasi-Protestant hermeneutics that sometimes seek to deny the use of entire books of inspired scripture. Years ago there was a professor at Moody Bible Institute who refused to teach anything but the Pauline epistles because he believed only Paul talked about the gospel. Sorry, but that’s moronic. Christ is the Savior. There’s no reason why I shouldn’t look into the gospels for information about His love of mankind.
“And yes, you can find verses in those books that state ‘works’ are necessary for salvation...”
What I have used scripture for is to prove the truth. No book of scripture speaks against the truth - and that truth includes our need to cooperate with God. Those who resist God and His grace are damned.
“But if you go to the Pauline epistles, the books written to the church(es), where the gospel of Grace was revealed, you’ll see that works are no longer required...They were replaced by Grace...God’s grace...”
No. No one could ever be saved without grace. No one has ever gotten to heaven without grace. Period. The gospel message has several parts - but there was only one gospel: ONE Lord, ONE faith, ONE baptism.
ONE. Only ONE.
This is easy for me. But it is so very difficult for you. Those who resist God will not be saved. They will also not be able to understand His word as I think you’re demonstrating right now.
“Just to make a point, do you see anything in that verse about salvation???”
Do you not think that the Last Judgment is about the Four Last things?
“What you apparently don’t know is that there will be many people that make it to Heaven but will be ashamed when they stand before Jesus...That verse has nothing to do with losing Salvation...”
It has EVERYTHING to do with cooperating with God so that someone doesn’t go to Hell. “...abide in Him, that when He appears, we may have confidence ...” Abide in Him - at bare minimum that means don’t reject Christ. How could that do anything other than encourage cooperation?
“Of course a Christian can’t lose the Holy Spirit...Jesus says were are ‘sealed’ with the Holy Spirit until the day of Redemption...”
Why avoid my question? I asked the following: “If a Spirit filled man renounces Christ and becomes a Hindu is the Spirit still dwelling in him as He once was?”
A man renounces Christ and becomes a Hindu - that’s the example I used. Why did you ignore my example and invent another?
You avoid the question by saying: “Of course a Christian can’t lose the Holy Spirit...”
The man is no longer a believer in Christ. Now, please actually answer my questions - this is attempt number two (I expect it might go to half a dozen requests like the last time): “If a Spirit filled man renounces Christ and becomes a Hindu is the Spirit still dwelling in him as He once was? I ask for this simple reason: If the Holy Spirit can leave a man because the man’s actions are an offense to God, doesn’t that imply that the man must cooperate with the Holy Spirit to keep that relationship intact and full? You can’t have it both ways. You can’t claim - as I am almost positive you would - that a man through his apostasy can lose the Holy Spirit, but that that same man does not have to cooperate with the Spirit to keep that relationship intact. Apostasy would be the most outrageous form of not cooperating. So wouldn’t cooperating be the bare minimum a man to keep that relationship intact?”
You wrote: “We can not lose the Holy Spirit but we can certainly ‘grieve’ the Holy Spirit by our bad actions...Our spirit is at war with our flesh...When the flesh wins, it grieves the Holy Spirit...”
So you can’t lose the Holy Spirit even after denying Him? Even after denouncing and renouncing Christ, a man still has the Holy Spirit dwelling in him just as he once did?
“God would no more kick you out of His family than you would kick one of your kids out of yours...”
Kids leave. People commit apostasy. I said nothing about God kicking anyone out. See how you misconstrue things? Is that on purpose? The proper analogy would be (not God kicking someone out, but) someone leaving God. You’re saying a man can renounce God, deny God, apostasize and still be in the same relationship with Him as a man who actually loves God and has faith in Him? So there’s no difference with hating and denying God and loving and having faith in God? You are now claiming that men with no faith in Christ can be saved. Way to go Iscool! You just sold out the gospel of grace as a pile of rags.
“God may whip you, but he won’t run you off...”
No, but men commit apostasy. You keep trying to create a straw man saying God doesn’t run people off. I never claimed He did. But don’t some men commit apostasy and deny God, deny Christ? How can you ignore that fact?
“He’ll be there waiting for you to come back just like the Prodigal Son...”
Yes, He will be waiting there. But if you don’t go back...then what? How about actually answering my questions:
“”If a Spirit filled man renounces Christ and becomes a Hindu is the Spirit still dwelling in him as He once was? I ask for this simple reason: If the Holy Spirit can leave a man because the man’s actions are an offense to God, doesn’t that imply that the man must cooperate with the Holy Spirit to keep that relationship intact and full? You can’t have it both ways. You can’t claim - as I am almost positive you would - that a man through his apostasy can lose the Holy Spirit, but that that same man does not have to cooperate with the Spirit to keep that relationship intact. Apostasy would be the most outrageous form of not cooperating. So wouldn’t cooperating be the bare minimum a man to keep that relationship intact?”
Just as I expected...you never even attempted to answer the questions that I stated before hand you probably would evade.
This is easy for me. But so very hard for you. You can’t or won’t even answer my questions. Why is that?
HE'S ALREADY BOUGHT [the socks] AND PUT THEM UNDER YOUR TREE...THEY'RE THE RIGHT COLOR AND THEY'RE YOURS...JUST HOLD OUT YOUR HAND...
Amen! I agree. If I don't hold out my hand, I won't get the socks. If I do, I will.
That's cooperation.
What does any of that have to do with Mary participating in redemption? If you mean, she must accept the gift offered to her, so be it. But, if it in any way goes beyond herself, wrong answer. Redemption is totally the work of Jesus Christ...Mary in no way participates in that!
You have an amazingly naive theology of redemption!
Not naive, simple maybe. As I see it, God created man and woman with the intention that they would live together in love. Before the fall, God visited with man and woman, spoke with man and woman and all was well. Then through man and woman came sin and the wages of sin death. Now, God knew this even before He created man and woman. And from the beginning, He knew that the second person in the Holy Trinity would come to earth as a man to redeem His created ones. This person, Jesus, paid the debt owed by all humanity for sin. His payment opened the gates of heaven so that man and woman could once again live with God in paradise.
Now, just as sin comes through a man and a woman, so too does redemption. Jesus and Mary, as foretold in Genesis, the woman and her son. It's not naive. The woman led the man to sin because of her pride and disobedience. Mary, because of her humility and obedience gives birth to Jesus, who then redeems us. Not naive, simple maybe, but I have been accused of worse:)
Mary was a part of God's plan from the first. She was chosen and given every grace needed to be able to say yes, but never was her free will taken from her. So, yes, she shares Jesus' redemptive mission and every time you or I spread the Gospel, share His message or show love in His name, so do we.
Rom 5;12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
It was Adam who bears the responsibility for sin entering into the creation; and it was Jesus who iss responsible for the penalty of sin being removed. Neither Eve nor Mary are part of the equation.
Yes you did...And you used your word cooperate...
But that verse applied to the period of time AFTER you are saved...And then, you use the same word, cooperate, for something you must do to get saved...And that doesn't fly...If cooperate means working together, you got the wrong word for Salvation...But maybe that's the point eh??? You claim there are no works in the Salvation process, but cooperate is works...
And then your word cooperation has some negative connotations associated with it...
If you are a suspect in a robbery, the police want you to cooperate with them...
Jesus is the operator...He does the operation...
Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
Jesus doesn't need any help...He doesn't need a cooperator any more than He needs a coreedemer or a comediatrix...
I never once mentioned salvation in regard to Matthew 3:7-9. Yet you claim I did. Why misconstrue what I so clearly wrote? I wrote: “...about repentence: In Matthew 3:7–9, John says to the Pharisees...” and again “It is a call to turn away from sin. Sincere repentance requires turning away from sin.”
Where in that paragraph do you see me mention either the word or concept of salvation? Where? I hope you have the courage to answer that question. I really, really do.
How about really, really, really???
If you don't think it has to do with salvation, why did you bring it up...You're trying to prove that this repentance has something to do with cooperating with Jesus...If it has nothing to do with Salvation, it has nothing to do with you...
No. No one could ever be saved without grace. No one has ever gotten to heaven without grace. Period. The gospel message has several parts - but there was only one gospel: ONE Lord, ONE faith, ONE baptism.
Jesus says we are saved by grace thru faith, without works...You claim it was ceremonial works...The Parisees were pretty big on ceremonial law but that didn't help them...Matthew tells you that you must feed and clothe the poor, and visit people in prison or you doomed...That's called good works...
Grace is defined as 'unmerited favor'...Those people in Matthew didn't have any unmerited favor...They had to provide good works...They had to (after John the Baptist) believe that Jesus was their Saviour and do good things as well...Show me where the Grace was...
Do you not think that the Last Judgment is about the Four Last things?
You may show up at the Last Judgement...I won't be there...
Why avoid my question? I asked the following: “If a Spirit filled man renounces Christ and becomes a Hindu is the Spirit still dwelling in him as He once was?”
Why invent a goofy question like this??? God says were are 'sealed' with the Holy Spirit...You don't believe God???
Of course we can sin against God...We all do...Every day...What's God's reaction??? He may get out his 'board of education' and have a serious talk with you...He may wait til you get to heaven and take you out behind the woodshed...
In all liklihood, a Hindu was probably never a Christian to begin with...
Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
One may turn against God...Or turn off God...But I don't believe on could turn to 'another' God after being filled with the Holy Spirit...
So wouldn’t cooperating be the bare minimum a man to keep that relationship intact?”
Keeping the ralationship intact and losing the Holy Spirit are two competely different things...They have nothing to do with each other...
So you can’t lose the Holy Spirit even after denying Him? Even after denouncing and renouncing Christ, a man still has the Holy Spirit dwelling in him just as he once did?
Absolutely...Another thing you apparently don't know is that being indwelt with the Holy Spirit and being filled with the Holy Spirit are two differnt things...
Kids leave.
Yep...I left home...But I didn't quit the family...And I wasn't kicked out of the family...
So there’s no difference with hating and denying God and loving and having faith in God? You are now claiming that men with no faith in Christ can be saved. Way to go Iscool! You just sold out the gospel of grace as a pile of rags.
You are obviously writing for a gullable audience...You were talking about saved people, filled with the Holy Spirit, NOW you trying to install unsaved people into the mix and point your skinny finger at me for saying something I didn't say...
So wouldn’t cooperating be the bare minimum a man to keep that relationship intact?”
You sure are hung up on cooperate and it's not even a bible word...Jesus never used that word...Why say cooperate instead of love??? instead of worship??? instead of pray??? instead of witness??? instead of fast??? Cooperate's a pretty feeble word when you compare it to the words Jesus used...
That’s funny, my Bible says different. All men suffered because of the actions of Eve and all men are redeemed because of the actions of Mary. Think of these women as the fulcrum, Adam sinned upon being tempted by Eve. Jesus became man because of the obedience of Mary. The main characters, no, central to the plan, without a doubt.
Eve and Mary cannot be separated from the equation. God made them a part of it, not the Church. Just as Adam was a type of who was to come, so was Eve. Adam and Eve were created without sin and by their actions sin came and with it death, disease and suffering. Jesus and Mary were sinless and by their actions came redemption and life. The verses you cite were specifically speaking of Jesus. Not including Mary or Eve did not mean that they were not a part of it.
Resistance takes so much more energy than acceptance. Protestants must cut from the Biblical story of redemption so much to exclude Mary. Just because she has only a small mention in the Bible, and just because the Bible doesn’t spell it out for them, they discount her as just some woman God chose to bear His Son, nothing more, an incubator as it were.
I would never, never claim that it was anyone other than Jesus who paid the price for our salvation. But, to pretend that Mary was not an essential part of it is wrong, and to act as if God would be offended by our love of her is wrong.
Thank you, I like your sock story as well. When I was a Confirmation instructor, I used to tell my kids that the gifts of the Holy Spirit were theirs but it was up to them how they used them. I would relate to them how many of them would feel no differently after the rite, but the gifts were still there.
I could give myself as an example. Unlike them I think I was about 8 when I was confirmed due to the fact that I lived in a small town which the bishop only visited every 4 years or so. Therefore, several different ages of kids were confirmed at the same time. Like me with 3 older brothers and sisters and one younger. The point was though that I never understood the significance of it.
Years later, after having been away from the Church for 20 years, when I returned, the Holy Spirit guided me every step of the way. He was always there as were His gifts, but I didn’t even acknowledge them much less call upon them. But, when I eventually did, boy did I receive!
Book, chapter, and verses please.
Genesis 3, the story of the fall. My Bible says that Satan in the form of the serpent approached Eve first and it was Eve who brought the apple to Adam. It is also where we learn humanity’s punishment for their pride and disobedience, and where we learn those through whom redemption would come.
Luke 1:26-80, the story of the Annunciation. The angel of the Lord brings to Mary God’s request that she would bear His Son. It is here where we learn of God’s plan for our redemption and it is through Mary’s humility and obedience we are given our salvation, who is Christ Jesus.
Do you really not understand this? Or do you think maybe I don’t? In both of these accounts, which are really only one story, one of prophecy and one of fulfillment, a woman is instrumental, in the fall and in salvation. God’s plan, not mine. God’s choice, not mine. God’s gift, not mine. I just happily and gratefully enjoy it.
Again, if God had so willed it, Jesus would have just come, redeemed us all, that would be that. No need to be truly human, no need to suffer and die, no need to be raised. No need of a church, a Bible, saints, prayer or repentance. Why did He do it the way He did?
I do not dispute the roles of Eve or Mary. But you have gone beyond Scripture to say that either is a part of the process of redemption. That is only the work of God. No human participated in that. And you lessen the Person of Christ when you expend so much time and energy on Mary. Your focus should be only on Christ. We are never told to make any human the focus...Christ and Christ alone should be where we look.
Even Scripture acknowledges that there is more to God’s work than that recorded in Scripture. I don’t believe, however that anything I have said is beyond Scripture. There are explicit and implicit teachings in Scripture. The many layers to each and every verse have been the subject of countless sermons and teachings. The doctrine of the Trinity is itself implicit and not explicit in Scripture.
I do not dispute that redemption is the work of God alone. What you do, is to shun the work God has done in others for your benefit. Mary is a product of the work of God. If I admire the beauty of nature, do I diminish God? Or am I seeing even more His glory and offering Him thanks and praise for the world He created? When I give honor to Mary, I am acknowledging what He did for her, and yes, what she did for Him. Catholics know that Mary is who she is because of who Jesus is.
The Bible is replete with the stories of the people God has used, but Mary has a singular place among those people. Just as all mothers have a singular place in the hearts of their children.
Mary, from the moment she said yes has been used by her Son to bring people to him. She did so at Fatima, in Mexico through Juan Diego and does so still in Medjegorie. Millions of people have visited these places and been converted. She is truly the mother of us all. I consider her a gift which reminds me always of the giver.
Mary is not the “mother of us all”, that would be Eve. And she is not active in the world today, despite the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church. Mary is no more active in the world today than the Apostle Paul. The only One active now is the Holy Spirit, the only One who effectually calls us to Christ. I know that runs contrary to the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church..and I guess we will just have to disagree.
Yes, I guess we will. I will leave you with this though. Just as we are adopted sons of God, brothers and sisters of Jesus, we are also Mary’s children. It is fine for you to think Mary is not active in this world, but millions would disagree. The miracle associated with her appearance at Fatima has been testified to by thousands.
Protestants tend to think of this world one dimensionally. Catholics see it as a continuum of life. Those who have gone before us are not just sleeping somewhere waiting for the last day. At least their souls aren’t. It’s funny when asked about the Catholic doctrines of saints and such, many protestants disagree. But, ask them if their own family members are in heaven and if they sometimes feel the presence and love of deceased loved ones, they will say yes.
So, if you can, put aside your first instinct to reject anything Catholic. As I said before, for some it is just an automatic rejection of Catholicism.
You wrote:
“Yes you did...And you used your word cooperate...”
“Working together” says the Bible.
“But that verse applied to the period of time AFTER you are saved...”
Can someone be saved while resisting God’s grace? No. You keep ignoring the contradiction.
“And then, you use the same word, cooperate, for something you must do to get saved...And that doesn’t fly...”
Again, can you be saved against your will? Yes or no?
“If cooperate means working together, you got the wrong word for Salvation...”
“Working together” says scripture.
“But maybe that’s the point eh??? You claim there are no works in the Salvation process, but cooperate is works...”
No, cooperate is openness. Again, can you be saved against your will?
If you say, yes - then you are a fool.
If you say, no - then you still have to explain how.
“And then your word cooperation has some negative connotations associated with it...”
Nope. None. Only those who deny the gospel deny the scriptures = “Working together”.
“If you are a suspect in a robbery, the police want you to cooperate with them...”
Openness, yes.
“Jesus is the operator...He does the operation...”
Yes, and if we refuse it? What happens to us when we refuse God’s gift?
“Jesus doesn’t need any help...He doesn’t need a cooperator any more than He needs a coreedemer or a comediatrix...”
So, you’re saying God saves everyone against their will? You can’t have it both ways. You can’t contradict yourself like that and expect to be taken seriously. If you believe men are saved against their will, then you’re foolish at best. If you believe men are not saved against their will, then you must reconcile that fact with “Working together” in scripture.
How about really, really, really???
My question still stands: “I never once mentioned salvation in regard to Matthew 3:7-9. Yet you claim I did. Why misconstrue what I so clearly wrote? I wrote: “...about repentence: In Matthew 3:7–9, John says to the Pharisees...” and again “It is a call to turn away from sin. Sincere repentance requires turning away from sin.”
Where in that paragraph do you see me mention either the word or concept of salvation? Where? I hope you have the courage to answer that question. I really, really do.”
“If you don’t think it has to do with salvation, why did you bring it up...”
Because it proves the scriptural truth about repentence that you denied. Rather than deal with it as the proof it is, you misconstrued it as a proof text about salvation. I said nothing about salvation.
“You’re trying to prove that this repentance has something to do with cooperating with Jesus...If it has nothing to do with Salvation, it has nothing to do with you...”
It has to do with repentence. You denied the scriptural reality of what repentence is. You denied that repentence included turning away from sin. The verses I posted showed that repentence includes turning away from sin.
And not surprisingly, after denying the truth about repentence, then apparently pretending the verses were posted as a proof text about salvation, you are now apparently pretending to not remember that they were posted in regard to repentence. This is remarkable considering I wrote this: “...about repentence: In Matthew 3:7–9, John says to the Pharisees...” and again “It is a call to turn away from sin. Sincere repentance requires turning away from sin.”
“Jesus says we are saved by grace thru faith, without works...”
That doesn’t mean we are saved against our will.
“You claim it was ceremonial works...The Parisees were pretty big on ceremonial law but that didn’t help them...”
Yes, but with no repentence, no cooperation and no grace. Again, why do you think I posted Matthew 3 - which is ABOUT THE PHARISEES REFUSAL TO BE PROPERLY REPENTANT. Pay attention. How can you ignore the obvious fact that Matthew 3 is about the Pharisees.
“Matthew tells you that you must feed and clothe the poor, and visit people in prison or you doomed...That’s called good works...”
That’s called charity. What does James say about faith and charity in James 2?
“Grace is defined as ‘unmerited favor’...Those people in Matthew didn’t have any unmerited favor...They had to provide good works...They had to (after John the Baptist) believe that Jesus was their Saviour and do good things as well...Show me where the Grace was...”
The grace was with Christ and remained with Him until the death of Christ on the Cross. You’re only proving my point. Absolutely nothing you’ve said changes this fact: You can’t be saved against your will.
“You may show up at the Last Judgement...I won’t be there...”
Everyone will. All will be judged. EVERYONE.
“Why invent a goofy question like this???”
It’s not goofy just because you can’t answer it.
“God says were are ‘sealed’ with the Holy Spirit...You don’t believe God???”
I do. I also believe men can resist God and fall away from Him.
“Of course we can sin against God...We all do...Every day...What’s God’s reaction??? He may get out his ‘board of education’ and have a serious talk with you...He may wait til you get to heaven and take you out behind the woodshed...”
And if you renounce Him? Will you still be saved? Will you really go to heaven if you deny Christ?
“In all liklihood, a Hindu was probably never a Christian to begin with...”
That’s a common and completely ineffectual response from many OSAS believers. The simple reality is that there are people - intelligent, educated, once God-fearing people - who, for whatever reason, lose their faith, and even renounce Jesus. It’s happened. There are Christians - including Protestants ministers - who have become Muslims. Is that not a denial of Christ? Are you really going to claim these people were never Christians? Sorry, but they - and everyone who knows them - would insist otherwise.
What you’re trying is an OSAS gambit. Unfortunately, it denies reality.
“One may turn against God...Or turn off God...But I don’t believe on could turn to ‘another’ God after being filled with the Holy Spirit...”
You don’t believe? Reality has little to do with what you believe then. Men defy God. They reject God. And sadly, they can worship false gods. By the way, do you believe Catholics are Christians then who DO NOT worship false gods? If you believe we are Christians, and you don’t believe those who have been filled with the Holy Spirit can turn to “another” god, then you don’t believe it is possible for Catholics to be idolators. So, even if we pray to Mary - according to your logic (IF you believe we are Christians) - we are not doing anything wrong, right?
So, what will it be? Will you now say that Catholics were never Christians to begin with?
That would be amusing for you to say at this point. Do you know why?
Think about those Protestants who become Catholics. I guess you’ll have to either say that (if Catholics are not Christians) then those Protestant converts have turned “to ‘another’ God after being filled with the Holy Spirit...”
OR
If you’re going to say that Catholics are Christians, then praying to Mary can’t be wrong because it can’t be idolatry since we would - according to your logic - never turn to another god, false god, etc.
So, which is it?
I can’t wait to see your answer.
“Keeping the ralationship intact and losing the Holy Spirit are two competely different things...They have nothing to do with each other...”
The former is the denial of the latter. If the relationship is intact, then the Holy Spirit will not be lost.
“Absolutely...Another thing you apparently don’t know is that being indwelt with the Holy Spirit and being filled with the Holy Spirit are two differnt things...”
You can’t even understand the phrase “Working together” yet.
“Yep...I left home...But I didn’t quit the family...And I wasn’t kicked out of the family...”
But people have been. To deny reality because a particular situation hasn’t happened to you is a sign that you are losing the argument to say the least.
“You are obviously writing for a gullable audience...You were talking about saved people, filled with the Holy Spirit, NOW you trying to install unsaved people into the mix and point your skinny finger at me for saying something I didn’t say...”
Why dodge my questions? Why are you afraid about who is reading this? I already asked you about a Christian denying Christ and becoming a Hindu and you dodged those questions too? Why are you so afraid?
Here is what I wrote:
“So there’s no difference with hating and denying God and loving and having faith in God? You are now claiming that men with no faith in Christ can be saved. Way to go Iscool! You just sold out the gospel of grace as a pile of rags.”
If a man loses all his faith in Christ - but was once a Christian - will he still go to heaven? Yes or no?
“You sure are hung up on cooperate and it’s not even a bible word...”
“Working together” is. Keep dodging, Iscool.
“Jesus never used that word...Why say cooperate instead of love???”
“Working together” the Bible says.
“instead of worship???”
“Working together” the Bible says.
“instead of pray???”
“Working together” the Bible says.
“instead of witness???”
“Working together” the Bible says.
“instead of fast???”
“Working together” the Bible says.
“Cooperate’s a pretty feeble word when you compare it to the words Jesus used...”
“Working together” the Bible says.
I do not believe any Christian has ever become a muzlim...There are Protestant pastors and Catholic priests who are NOT Christians...
Is that not a denial of Christ? Are you really going to claim these people were never Christians? Sorry, but they - and everyone who knows them - would insist otherwise.
There are three people who know whether you and I are a Christian...You/me, God and Satan...
No, cooperate is openness. Again, can you be saved against your will?
Cooperate does not mean openness...Check any dictionary...How can you defend cooperation when you don't even know what it means???
The grace was with Christ and remained with Him until the death of Christ on the Cross. .
Well of course it was...But He didn't pass it out to everyone till after the Resurrection...
You’re only proving my point. Absolutely nothing you’ve said changes this fact: You can’t be saved against your will.
Why do you keep repeating that??? I already told you no one can get saved against their will...
Actually I already know your reasoning...As a Catholic, you mistakenly think you are in a lifelong process of 'getting saved'...
“You may show up at the Last Judgement...I won’t be there...”
Everyone will. All will be judged. EVERYONE.
Nope...I'll be part of the first group which is called the first resurrection...My judgement will take place about a thousand years before yours...
Rev 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Hey, that's me, over here...I'll be reigning with Jesus Christ as a priest...
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
You notice here that Satan and his crew are set to attack the Saints, and the beloved city...AFTER a thousand year reign of Jesus on the earth, which you don't believe...
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night forever and ever>
Now here comes the judgement you are looking forward to...
Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
There's your salvation requirement...According to your works, good and bad...
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
And again
Rev 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
And this...
1Jn 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
1Jn 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
As a Christian, with faith, I have overcome already...I will not be at the Great White Throne Judgement...We know that your church taught you that some of Revelation has taken place already but most of it is a myth...
I'm not taking that chance...I am in Jesus Christ, and He is in me...And there's nothing that can change that, including me...
You wrote:
“I do not believe any Christian has ever become a muzlim...”
That would only be proof that you are out of touch with reality because it is a fact that professing and believing Christians have lost their faith and become members of other religions. To deny this is to deny reality.
“There are Protestant pastors and Catholic priests who are NOT Christians...”
According to what standard? Yours? Again, you’re out of touch with reality so how can your standard make any sense.
“There are three people who know whether you and I are a Christian...You/me, God and Satan...”
Yet you assume that all those who do what you deny can be done were never Christian in the first place.
“Cooperate does not mean openness...”
Does it mean closed? Please think.
“Check any dictionary...How can you defend cooperation when you don’t even know what it means???”
“Working together” - is that cooperation? And that’s what scripture says. Don’t play games saying I don’t know what cooperation means. If God comes to you, and you cooperate with His grace, that means you’re open to it rather than refuse it. It’s that simple.
“Why do you keep repeating that??? I already told you no one can get saved against their will...”
Then we must cooperate. There are only three possibilities: 1) we resist (and are damned), 2) we cooperate (and are not damned), or 3) we do not resist actively nor do we cooperate. And that would still be passive resistance so we would be damned.
Make your choice.
“Actually I already know your reasoning...As a Catholic, you mistakenly think you are in a lifelong process of ‘getting saved’...”
Actually I am in a process of sanctification. Not justification. And you claim you know what we believe?
“Nope...I’ll be part of the first group which is called the first resurrection...My judgement will take place about a thousand years before yours...”
No. All will be at the Last Judgment. Our personal judgments are at different times.
“Hey, that’s me, over here...I’ll be reigning with Jesus Christ as a priest...”
No, probably not since you do not cooperate with His grace. But that is for Him to decide.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08552a.htm
“You notice here that Satan and his crew are set to attack the Saints, and the beloved city...AFTER a thousand year reign of Jesus on the earth, which you don’t believe...”
I don’t believe in latter-day Protestant interpretations. I believe the Bible, not you.
Wow, look at how you avoided almost all of my questions and points and went on a tangent about the Last Judgment.
Notice that?
Here’s what you avoided:
So, you’re saying God saves everyone against their will? You can’t have it both ways. You can’t contradict yourself like that and expect to be taken seriously. If you believe men are saved against their will, then you’re foolish at best. If you believe men are not saved against their will, then you must reconcile that fact with “Working together” in scripture.
How about really, really, really???
My question still stands: “I never once mentioned salvation in regard to Matthew 3:7-9. Yet you claim I did. Why misconstrue what I so clearly wrote? I wrote: “...about repentence: In Matthew 3:7–9, John says to the Pharisees...” and again “It is a call to turn away from sin. Sincere repentance requires turning away from sin.”
Where in that paragraph do you see me mention either the word or concept of salvation? Where? I hope you have the courage to answer that question. I really, really do.”
“If you don’t think it has to do with salvation, why did you bring it up...”
Because it proves the scriptural truth about repentence that you denied. Rather than deal with it as the proof it is, you misconstrued it as a proof text about salvation. I said nothing about salvation.
“You’re trying to prove that this repentance has something to do with cooperating with Jesus...If it has nothing to do with Salvation, it has nothing to do with you...”
It has to do with repentence. You denied the scriptural reality of what repentence is. You denied that repentence included turning away from sin. The verses I posted showed that repentence includes turning away from sin.
And not surprisingly, after denying the truth about repentence, then apparently pretending the verses were posted as a proof text about salvation, you are now apparently pretending to not remember that they were posted in regard to repentence. This is remarkable considering I wrote this: “...about repentence: In Matthew 3:7–9, John says to the Pharisees...” and again “It is a call to turn away from sin. Sincere repentance requires turning away from sin.”
“Jesus says we are saved by grace thru faith, without works...”
That doesn’t mean we are saved against our will.
“You claim it was ceremonial works...The Parisees were pretty big on ceremonial law but that didn’t help them...”
Yes, but with no repentence, no cooperation and no grace. Again, why do you think I posted Matthew 3 - which is ABOUT THE PHARISEES REFUSAL TO BE PROPERLY REPENTANT. Pay attention. How can you ignore the obvious fact that Matthew 3 is about the Pharisees.
“Matthew tells you that you must feed and clothe the poor, and visit people in prison or you doomed...That’s called good works...”
That’s called charity. What does James say about faith and charity in James 2?
“Grace is defined as ‘unmerited favor’...Those people in Matthew didn’t have any unmerited favor...They had to provide good works...They had to (after John the Baptist) believe that Jesus was their Saviour and do good things as well...Show me where the Grace was...”
The grace was with Christ and remained with Him until the death of Christ on the Cross. You’re only proving my point. Absolutely nothing you’ve said changes this fact: You can’t be saved against your will.
“In all liklihood, a Hindu was probably never a Christian to begin with...”
That’s a common and completely ineffectual response from many OSAS believers. The simple reality is that there are people - intelligent, educated, once God-fearing people - who, for whatever reason, lose their faith, and even renounce Jesus. It’s happened. There are Christians - including Protestants ministers - who have become Muslims. Is that not a denial of Christ? Are you really going to claim these people were never Christians? Sorry, but they - and everyone who knows them - would insist otherwise.
What you’re trying is an OSAS gambit. Unfortunately, it denies reality.
“One may turn against God...Or turn off God...But I don’t believe on could turn to ‘another’ God after being filled with the Holy Spirit...”
You don’t believe? Reality has little to do with what you believe then. Men defy God. They reject God. And sadly, they can worship false gods. By the way, do you believe Catholics are Christians then who DO NOT worship false gods? If you believe we are Christians, and you don’t believe those who have been filled with the Holy Spirit can turn to “another” god, then you don’t believe it is possible for Catholics to be idolators. So, even if we pray to Mary - according to your logic (IF you believe we are Christians) - we are not doing anything wrong, right?
So, what will it be? Will you now say that Catholics were never Christians to begin with?
That would be amusing for you to say at this point. Do you know why?
Think about those Protestants who become Catholics. I guess you’ll have to either say that (if Catholics are not Christians) then those Protestant converts have turned “to ‘another’ God after being filled with the Holy Spirit...”
OR
If you’re going to say that Catholics are Christians, then praying to Mary can’t be wrong because it can’t be idolatry since we would - according to your logic - never turn to another god, false god, etc.
So, which is it?
I can’t wait to see your answer.
“Keeping the ralationship intact and losing the Holy Spirit are two competely different things...They have nothing to do with each other...”
The former is the denial of the latter. If the relationship is intact, then the Holy Spirit will not be lost.
“Absolutely...Another thing you apparently don’t know is that being indwelt with the Holy Spirit and being filled with the Holy Spirit are two differnt things...”
You can’t even understand the phrase “Working together” yet.
“Yep...I left home...But I didn’t quit the family...And I wasn’t kicked out of the family...”
But people have been. To deny reality because a particular situation hasn’t happened to you is a sign that you are losing the argument to say the least.
“You are obviously writing for a gullable audience...You were talking about saved people, filled with the Holy Spirit, NOW you trying to install unsaved people into the mix and point your skinny finger at me for saying something I didn’t say...”
Why dodge my questions? Why are you afraid about who is reading this? I already asked you about a Christian denying Christ and becoming a Hindu and you dodged those questions too? Why are you so afraid?
Here is what I wrote:
“So there’s no difference with hating and denying God and loving and having faith in God? You are now claiming that men with no faith in Christ can be saved. Way to go Iscool! You just sold out the gospel of grace as a pile of rags.”
If a man loses all his faith in Christ - but was once a Christian - will he still go to heaven? Yes or no?
“You sure are hung up on cooperate and it’s not even a bible word...”
“Working together” is. Keep dodging, Iscool.
“Jesus never used that word...Why say cooperate instead of love???”
“Working together” the Bible says.
It would be really nice if you actually answered my questions and dealt with my points.
Think you can handle that?
Eh, so you're getting judged twice...
That would only be proof that you are out of touch with reality because it is a fact that professing and believing Christians have lost their faith and become members of other religions. To deny this is to deny reality.
Really??? How does that work then??? You kick the Holy Spirit out of your body??? Or does He just get bored and leave your body??? At what point does the Holy Spirit leave your body??? When you sin??? After you haven't made a confession for 45 days???
“Working together” - is that cooperation? And that’s what scripture says. Don’t play games saying I don’t know what cooperation means. If God comes to you, and you cooperate with His grace, that means you’re open to it rather than refuse it. It’s that simple.
You are one confused puppy...No one gets Saved by cooperating...
Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
You don't cooperate with grace to gain salvation...You call on the name of THAT one who died for all...
At one time in this conversation you equate cooperation to work...Now,you claim it's openness...Make up your mind...Openness and works are not the same thing...And NEITHER one of those will bring you into the presence of Jesus...
“You notice here that Satan and his crew are set to attack the Saints, and the beloved city...AFTER a thousand year reign of Jesus on the earth, which you don’t believe...”
I don’t believe in latter-day Protestant interpretations. I believe the Bible, not you.
Wasn't any interpretation involved...Just readin' what it says...If you don't want to believe what it says, have at it...
Here’s what you avoided:
So, you’re saying God saves everyone against their will? You can’t have it both ways. You can’t contradict yourself like that and expect to be taken seriously. If you believe men are saved against their will, then you’re foolish at best. If you believe men are not saved against their will, then you must reconcile that fact with “Working together” in scripture.
LOL...I've answered you time and again...And NO, I don't have to reconcile your very faulty notion of what constitutes Salvation...We do NOT work with Jesus for our Salvation...It's a FREE GIFT...We SEEK Jesus and ASK him for the FREE GIFT...We work with Him AFTER He has given us the FREE GIFT...And it is He who does the works in us...
And like the Prodgal son; if we turn from God, He is anxious for us to return...We are NOT disowned; kicked out...Our home is STILL our home...We will not lose our inheritance...We may not get the best robes, or the many gifts, but we still have a home...
You wrote:
“Eh, so you’re getting judged twice...”
You are judged immediately at death. All are judged - and all sins exposed - at the Last Judgment.
“Really??? How does that work then??? You kick the Holy Spirit out of your body??? Or does He just get bored and leave your body??? At what point does the Holy Spirit leave your body??? When you sin??? After you haven’t made a confession for 45 days??? “
You tell me. After all, you’re denying that people can renounce God by what you’re saying. Can Christians become atheists? Yes. Can they renounce Christ and become a Muslim? Yes. Sadly so.
“You are one confused puppy...No one gets Saved by cooperating...”
So you’re back to saying people get saved by resisting God then? Can you please choose SOMETHING? Can you? You keep vacillating between those two: 1) you admit people can’t be saved resisting God. Yet, 2) you keep insisting no cooperation is necessary on the part of the man.
How can that be? If a man is not resisting, isn’t he cooperating?
“Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.”
So now people have to do a work? Isn’t calling upon the Lord a work? And what about Matthew 7:21? “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.”
Apparently not everyone calling upon the Lord will be saved - at least if you believe Jesus. So which is it?
Oh, and notice that last part of the verse: “...but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.”
He WHO DOES the will of my Father. Sure sounds like cooperation to me. Will you now deny Christ’s words, Iscool?
“You don’t cooperate with grace to gain salvation...You call on the name of THAT one who died for all...”
According to Matthew 7:21, Iscool, you are supposed to cooperate with God. I believe scripture over you. Also, common sense tells you that if you’re not cooperating with God, you’re resisting Him. Again, can you be saved resisting God?
“At one time in this conversation you equate cooperation to work...”
No, actually I used your understanding of work and cooperation. I did it to show that your explanations make no sense. And they don’t.
“Now,you claim it’s openness...Make up your mind...Openness and works are not the same thing...And NEITHER one of those will bring you into the presence of Jesus...”
1) I know Protestants who would call openness a work. The problem is that every Protestant has his own made up theology that has everything to do with his feelings and little to do with reality and scripture.
2) You have to make up your mind. If you have a wife, ask her if cooperating with her would include being open to her doing something for you. You already know what she’ll say don’t you? She’ll say yes, of course.
“Wasn’t any interpretation involved...Just readin’ what it says...If you don’t want to believe what it says, have at it...”
If you just read what’s there, then stop denying “Working together”.
Here’s what you avoided:
“LOL...I’ve answered you time and again...”
Nope. Here again is all that you have refused to respond to for at least the second or third time:
My question still stands: “I never once mentioned salvation in regard to Matthew 3:7-9. Yet you claim I did. Why misconstrue what I so clearly wrote? I wrote: “...about repentence: In Matthew 3:7–9, John says to the Pharisees...” and again “It is a call to turn away from sin. Sincere repentance requires turning away from sin.”
Where in that paragraph do you see me mention either the word or concept of salvation? Where? I hope you have the courage to answer that question. I really, really do.”
Since I said repentance and nothing about salvation there, why did you misconstrue what I said? Was it purposeful?
Here’s what else you have refused to respond to:
That’s called charity. What does James say about faith and charity in James 2?
And you have avoided really dealing with this:
That’s a common and completely ineffectual response from many OSAS believers. The simple reality is that there are people - intelligent, educated, once God-fearing people - who, for whatever reason, lose their faith, and even renounce Jesus. It’s happened. There are Christians - including Protestants ministers - who have become Muslims. Is that not a denial of Christ? Are you really going to claim these people were never Christians? Sorry, but they - and everyone who knows them - would insist otherwise.
Dismissing it as an impossibility when it is known to happen is not dealing with it.
And not surprisingly, you refused to deal with this:
You don’t believe? Reality has little to do with what you believe then. Men defy God. They reject God. And sadly, they can worship false gods. By the way, do you believe Catholics are Christians then who DO NOT worship false gods? If you believe we are Christians, and you don’t believe those who have been filled with the Holy Spirit can turn to “another” god, then you don’t believe it is possible for Catholics to be idolators. So, even if we pray to Mary - according to your logic (IF you believe we are Christians) - we are not doing anything wrong, right?
So, what will it be? Will you now say that Catholics were never Christians to begin with?
That would be amusing for you to say at this point. Do you know why?
Think about those Protestants who become Catholics. I guess you’ll have to either say that (if Catholics are not Christians) then those Protestant converts have turned “to ‘another’ God after being filled with the Holy Spirit...”
OR
If you’re going to say that Catholics are Christians, then praying to Mary can’t be wrong because it can’t be idolatry since we would - according to your logic - never turn to another god, false god, etc.
Why dodge my questions? Why are you afraid about who is reading this? I already asked you about a Christian denying Christ and becoming a Hindu and you dodged those questions too? Why are you so afraid?
now you write:
“And NO, I don’t have to reconcile your very faulty notion of what constitutes Salvation...We do NOT work with Jesus for our Salvation...”
We resist Him instead and are saved anyway? Go ahead and claim that resisting Christ lives to salvation if that’s the kooky idea you believe. If that is not what you believe, then at least state how you believe we do or do not resist Him and are saved. Can you do that much?
“It’s a FREE GIFT...We SEEK Jesus and ASK him for the FREE GIFT...We work with Him AFTER He has given us the FREE GIFT...And it is He who does the works in us...”
Whoa! Whoa! Whoa! We seek Him to be saved? Is that a work, Iscool? Can you be saved without seeking out Jesus then? Can you?
“And like the Prodgal son; if we turn from God, He is anxious for us to return...We are NOT disowned; kicked out...Our home is STILL our home...We will not lose our inheritance...We may not get the best robes, or the many gifts, but we still have a home...”
So, losing all faith in Christ still means we go to Heaven? Is that what you’re claiming now Iscool? Are you now going to say that someone who denies Christ as His Savior and Lord must never have been a Christian believer in the first place? Is that what you’ll do now, Iscool?
That’s okay. By now, if anyone is reading these posts, they’re probably as used to your avoiding my questions as I am! But seriously, how can you essentially claim a man can be saved by denying Christ? And if you’re going to now claim you don’t believe that, then please explain how a man can renounce Christ and still go to Heaven without repentance? And if you’re going to claim you don’t believe that either, then try to make some sense some how related to that issue.
Thanks!
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