You wrote:
“Cooperate: collaborate: work together on a common enterprise of project”
I already posted a verse that clearly said, “working together...”
Case closed. You lose yet again.
This is easy for me. I am not resisting God.
“You’re going to wear your keyboard out trying to convince yourself that you cooperated with God for your salvation...”
Nope. “Working together with him [Christ], then, we entreat you not to accept the grace of God in vain.” (2 Corinthians 6:1)
“Sorry, but no matter how much nor no matter how many times you try to twist and turn it, You don’t work together with God for your salvation...”
I’m not twisting anything. The Bible says: “Working together with him [Christ], then, we entreat you not to accept the grace of God in vain.” (2 Corinthians 6:1)
“Salvation is a free GIFT...And if you didn’t get it for free, without ‘cooperating’, you didn’t get it...God doesn’t hand it out to people who think they can work (cooperate) for it...”
Salvation is a free gift - and if you don’t cooperate with it you’re damned: “Working together with him [Christ], then, we entreat you not to accept the grace of God in vain.” (2 Corinthians 6:1)
“You use a verse in Matthew for proof that one must turn from sin to attain salvation...”
Actually I used a verse in Matthew to show that the Bible teaches turning away from sin is part of repentance. It is undeniable. Watch how you misconstrue it:
“Problem is, salvation is no where in the verse...”
I never said it was.
This is what I said:
“Now, if you actually look in the Bible, this is what you would discover about repentence: In Matthew 3:7–9, John says to the Pharisees: “You brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath about to come? Therefore, bear fruit worthy of repentance.” What can “bear fruit worthy of repentance,” be other than turn away from your previous actions and attitudes? It is a call to turn away from sin. Sincere repentance requires turning away from sin. John makes this all the more clear when he tells them in verse 8 or 9 that their lists of ancestors won’t help them in this. THEY must do something. THEY must turn away from the sins.”
I never once mentioned salvation in regard to Matthew 3:7-9. Yet you claim I did. Why misconstrue what I so clearly wrote? I wrote: “...about repentence: In Matthew 3:7–9, John says to the Pharisees...” and again “It is a call to turn away from sin. Sincere repentance requires turning away from sin.”
Everything I wrote was clear. Yet you claim I wrote something I never did. Why?
Where in that paragraph do you see me mention either the word or concept of salvation? Where? I hope you have the courage to answer that question. I really, really do.
This is easy for me. But so very difficult for you.
“It’s not even in the vicinity...Those people were confessing their sins with the goal of coming into the Kindgom of Heaven...They were looking for a King, not a Saviour...There was no Grace involved...And there were no Christians...”
I never said anything about salvation in regard to that verse. When you prove I did, your point will be taken seriously. Have at it.
“One thing you guys are consistant about is your choice of scripture...You guys use one verse out of the Pauline epistles, one verse out of Peter, and spend the rest of your time in Matthew, Hebrews, James, and the first few chapters of Acts...”
I, unlike you apparently, consider all scripture inspired and of utility in learning about God and His love of man. I do not subscribe to the bizarre quasi-Protestant hermeneutics that sometimes seek to deny the use of entire books of inspired scripture. Years ago there was a professor at Moody Bible Institute who refused to teach anything but the Pauline epistles because he believed only Paul talked about the gospel. Sorry, but that’s moronic. Christ is the Savior. There’s no reason why I shouldn’t look into the gospels for information about His love of mankind.
“And yes, you can find verses in those books that state ‘works’ are necessary for salvation...”
What I have used scripture for is to prove the truth. No book of scripture speaks against the truth - and that truth includes our need to cooperate with God. Those who resist God and His grace are damned.
“But if you go to the Pauline epistles, the books written to the church(es), where the gospel of Grace was revealed, you’ll see that works are no longer required...They were replaced by Grace...God’s grace...”
No. No one could ever be saved without grace. No one has ever gotten to heaven without grace. Period. The gospel message has several parts - but there was only one gospel: ONE Lord, ONE faith, ONE baptism.
ONE. Only ONE.
This is easy for me. But it is so very difficult for you. Those who resist God will not be saved. They will also not be able to understand His word as I think you’re demonstrating right now.
“Just to make a point, do you see anything in that verse about salvation???”
Do you not think that the Last Judgment is about the Four Last things?
“What you apparently don’t know is that there will be many people that make it to Heaven but will be ashamed when they stand before Jesus...That verse has nothing to do with losing Salvation...”
It has EVERYTHING to do with cooperating with God so that someone doesn’t go to Hell. “...abide in Him, that when He appears, we may have confidence ...” Abide in Him - at bare minimum that means don’t reject Christ. How could that do anything other than encourage cooperation?
“Of course a Christian can’t lose the Holy Spirit...Jesus says were are ‘sealed’ with the Holy Spirit until the day of Redemption...”
Why avoid my question? I asked the following: “If a Spirit filled man renounces Christ and becomes a Hindu is the Spirit still dwelling in him as He once was?”
A man renounces Christ and becomes a Hindu - that’s the example I used. Why did you ignore my example and invent another?
You avoid the question by saying: “Of course a Christian can’t lose the Holy Spirit...”
The man is no longer a believer in Christ. Now, please actually answer my questions - this is attempt number two (I expect it might go to half a dozen requests like the last time): “If a Spirit filled man renounces Christ and becomes a Hindu is the Spirit still dwelling in him as He once was? I ask for this simple reason: If the Holy Spirit can leave a man because the man’s actions are an offense to God, doesn’t that imply that the man must cooperate with the Holy Spirit to keep that relationship intact and full? You can’t have it both ways. You can’t claim - as I am almost positive you would - that a man through his apostasy can lose the Holy Spirit, but that that same man does not have to cooperate with the Spirit to keep that relationship intact. Apostasy would be the most outrageous form of not cooperating. So wouldn’t cooperating be the bare minimum a man to keep that relationship intact?”
You wrote: “We can not lose the Holy Spirit but we can certainly ‘grieve’ the Holy Spirit by our bad actions...Our spirit is at war with our flesh...When the flesh wins, it grieves the Holy Spirit...”
So you can’t lose the Holy Spirit even after denying Him? Even after denouncing and renouncing Christ, a man still has the Holy Spirit dwelling in him just as he once did?
“God would no more kick you out of His family than you would kick one of your kids out of yours...”
Kids leave. People commit apostasy. I said nothing about God kicking anyone out. See how you misconstrue things? Is that on purpose? The proper analogy would be (not God kicking someone out, but) someone leaving God. You’re saying a man can renounce God, deny God, apostasize and still be in the same relationship with Him as a man who actually loves God and has faith in Him? So there’s no difference with hating and denying God and loving and having faith in God? You are now claiming that men with no faith in Christ can be saved. Way to go Iscool! You just sold out the gospel of grace as a pile of rags.
“God may whip you, but he won’t run you off...”
No, but men commit apostasy. You keep trying to create a straw man saying God doesn’t run people off. I never claimed He did. But don’t some men commit apostasy and deny God, deny Christ? How can you ignore that fact?
“He’ll be there waiting for you to come back just like the Prodigal Son...”
Yes, He will be waiting there. But if you don’t go back...then what? How about actually answering my questions:
“”If a Spirit filled man renounces Christ and becomes a Hindu is the Spirit still dwelling in him as He once was? I ask for this simple reason: If the Holy Spirit can leave a man because the man’s actions are an offense to God, doesn’t that imply that the man must cooperate with the Holy Spirit to keep that relationship intact and full? You can’t have it both ways. You can’t claim - as I am almost positive you would - that a man through his apostasy can lose the Holy Spirit, but that that same man does not have to cooperate with the Spirit to keep that relationship intact. Apostasy would be the most outrageous form of not cooperating. So wouldn’t cooperating be the bare minimum a man to keep that relationship intact?”
Just as I expected...you never even attempted to answer the questions that I stated before hand you probably would evade.
This is easy for me. But so very hard for you. You can’t or won’t even answer my questions. Why is that?
Yes you did...And you used your word cooperate...
But that verse applied to the period of time AFTER you are saved...And then, you use the same word, cooperate, for something you must do to get saved...And that doesn't fly...If cooperate means working together, you got the wrong word for Salvation...But maybe that's the point eh??? You claim there are no works in the Salvation process, but cooperate is works...
And then your word cooperation has some negative connotations associated with it...
If you are a suspect in a robbery, the police want you to cooperate with them...
Jesus is the operator...He does the operation...
Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
Jesus doesn't need any help...He doesn't need a cooperator any more than He needs a coreedemer or a comediatrix...
I never once mentioned salvation in regard to Matthew 3:7-9. Yet you claim I did. Why misconstrue what I so clearly wrote? I wrote: “...about repentence: In Matthew 3:7–9, John says to the Pharisees...” and again “It is a call to turn away from sin. Sincere repentance requires turning away from sin.”
Where in that paragraph do you see me mention either the word or concept of salvation? Where? I hope you have the courage to answer that question. I really, really do.
How about really, really, really???
If you don't think it has to do with salvation, why did you bring it up...You're trying to prove that this repentance has something to do with cooperating with Jesus...If it has nothing to do with Salvation, it has nothing to do with you...
No. No one could ever be saved without grace. No one has ever gotten to heaven without grace. Period. The gospel message has several parts - but there was only one gospel: ONE Lord, ONE faith, ONE baptism.
Jesus says we are saved by grace thru faith, without works...You claim it was ceremonial works...The Parisees were pretty big on ceremonial law but that didn't help them...Matthew tells you that you must feed and clothe the poor, and visit people in prison or you doomed...That's called good works...
Grace is defined as 'unmerited favor'...Those people in Matthew didn't have any unmerited favor...They had to provide good works...They had to (after John the Baptist) believe that Jesus was their Saviour and do good things as well...Show me where the Grace was...
Do you not think that the Last Judgment is about the Four Last things?
You may show up at the Last Judgement...I won't be there...
Why avoid my question? I asked the following: “If a Spirit filled man renounces Christ and becomes a Hindu is the Spirit still dwelling in him as He once was?”
Why invent a goofy question like this??? God says were are 'sealed' with the Holy Spirit...You don't believe God???
Of course we can sin against God...We all do...Every day...What's God's reaction??? He may get out his 'board of education' and have a serious talk with you...He may wait til you get to heaven and take you out behind the woodshed...
In all liklihood, a Hindu was probably never a Christian to begin with...
Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
One may turn against God...Or turn off God...But I don't believe on could turn to 'another' God after being filled with the Holy Spirit...
So wouldn’t cooperating be the bare minimum a man to keep that relationship intact?”
Keeping the ralationship intact and losing the Holy Spirit are two competely different things...They have nothing to do with each other...
So you can’t lose the Holy Spirit even after denying Him? Even after denouncing and renouncing Christ, a man still has the Holy Spirit dwelling in him just as he once did?
Absolutely...Another thing you apparently don't know is that being indwelt with the Holy Spirit and being filled with the Holy Spirit are two differnt things...
Kids leave.
Yep...I left home...But I didn't quit the family...And I wasn't kicked out of the family...
So there’s no difference with hating and denying God and loving and having faith in God? You are now claiming that men with no faith in Christ can be saved. Way to go Iscool! You just sold out the gospel of grace as a pile of rags.
You are obviously writing for a gullable audience...You were talking about saved people, filled with the Holy Spirit, NOW you trying to install unsaved people into the mix and point your skinny finger at me for saying something I didn't say...
So wouldn’t cooperating be the bare minimum a man to keep that relationship intact?”
You sure are hung up on cooperate and it's not even a bible word...Jesus never used that word...Why say cooperate instead of love??? instead of worship??? instead of pray??? instead of witness??? instead of fast??? Cooperate's a pretty feeble word when you compare it to the words Jesus used...