Replies

I already posted a verse that clearly said, “working together...”

Yes you did...And you used your word cooperate...

But that verse applied to the period of time AFTER you are saved...And then, you use the same word, cooperate, for something you must do to get saved...And that doesn't fly...If cooperate means working together, you got the wrong word for Salvation...But maybe that's the point eh??? You claim there are no works in the Salvation process, but cooperate is works...

And then your word cooperation has some negative connotations associated with it...

If you are a suspect in a robbery, the police want you to cooperate with them...

Jesus is the operator...He does the operation...

Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Jesus doesn't need any help...He doesn't need a cooperator any more than He needs a coreedemer or a comediatrix...

I never once mentioned salvation in regard to Matthew 3:7-9. Yet you claim I did. Why misconstrue what I so clearly wrote? I wrote: “...about repentence: In Matthew 3:7–9, John says to the Pharisees...” and again “It is a call to turn away from sin. Sincere repentance requires turning away from sin.”

Where in that paragraph do you see me mention either the word or concept of salvation? Where? I hope you have the courage to answer that question. I really, really do.

How about really, really, really???

If you don't think it has to do with salvation, why did you bring it up...You're trying to prove that this repentance has something to do with cooperating with Jesus...If it has nothing to do with Salvation, it has nothing to do with you...

No. No one could ever be saved without grace. No one has ever gotten to heaven without grace. Period. The gospel message has several parts - but there was only one gospel: ONE Lord, ONE faith, ONE baptism.

Jesus says we are saved by grace thru faith, without works...You claim it was ceremonial works...The Parisees were pretty big on ceremonial law but that didn't help them...Matthew tells you that you must feed and clothe the poor, and visit people in prison or you doomed...That's called good works...

Grace is defined as 'unmerited favor'...Those people in Matthew didn't have any unmerited favor...They had to provide good works...They had to (after John the Baptist) believe that Jesus was their Saviour and do good things as well...Show me where the Grace was...

Do you not think that the Last Judgment is about the Four Last things?

You may show up at the Last Judgement...I won't be there...

Why avoid my question? I asked the following: “If a Spirit filled man renounces Christ and becomes a Hindu is the Spirit still dwelling in him as He once was?”

Why invent a goofy question like this??? God says were are 'sealed' with the Holy Spirit...You don't believe God???

Of course we can sin against God...We all do...Every day...What's God's reaction??? He may get out his 'board of education' and have a serious talk with you...He may wait til you get to heaven and take you out behind the woodshed...

In all liklihood, a Hindu was probably never a Christian to begin with...

Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

One may turn against God...Or turn off God...But I don't believe on could turn to 'another' God after being filled with the Holy Spirit...

So wouldn’t cooperating be the bare minimum a man to keep that relationship intact?”

Keeping the ralationship intact and losing the Holy Spirit are two competely different things...They have nothing to do with each other...

So you can’t lose the Holy Spirit even after denying Him? Even after denouncing and renouncing Christ, a man still has the Holy Spirit dwelling in him just as he once did?

Absolutely...Another thing you apparently don't know is that being indwelt with the Holy Spirit and being filled with the Holy Spirit are two differnt things...

Kids leave.

Yep...I left home...But I didn't quit the family...And I wasn't kicked out of the family...

So there’s no difference with hating and denying God and loving and having faith in God? You are now claiming that men with no faith in Christ can be saved. Way to go Iscool! You just sold out the gospel of grace as a pile of rags.

You are obviously writing for a gullable audience...You were talking about saved people, filled with the Holy Spirit, NOW you trying to install unsaved people into the mix and point your skinny finger at me for saying something I didn't say...

So wouldn’t cooperating be the bare minimum a man to keep that relationship intact?”

You sure are hung up on cooperate and it's not even a bible word...Jesus never used that word...Why say cooperate instead of love??? instead of worship??? instead of pray??? instead of witness??? instead of fast??? Cooperate's a pretty feeble word when you compare it to the words Jesus used...

You wrote:

“Yes you did...And you used your word cooperate...”

“Working together” says the Bible.

“But that verse applied to the period of time AFTER you are saved...”

Can someone be saved while resisting God’s grace? No. You keep ignoring the contradiction.

“And then, you use the same word, cooperate, for something you must do to get saved...And that doesn’t fly...”

Again, can you be saved against your will? Yes or no?

“If cooperate means working together, you got the wrong word for Salvation...”

“Working together” says scripture.

“But maybe that’s the point eh??? You claim there are no works in the Salvation process, but cooperate is works...”

No, cooperate is openness. Again, can you be saved against your will?

If you say, yes - then you are a fool.

If you say, no - then you still have to explain how.

“And then your word cooperation has some negative connotations associated with it...”

Nope. None. Only those who deny the gospel deny the scriptures = “Working together”.

“If you are a suspect in a robbery, the police want you to cooperate with them...”

Openness, yes.

“Jesus is the operator...He does the operation...”

Yes, and if we refuse it? What happens to us when we refuse God’s gift?

“Jesus doesn’t need any help...He doesn’t need a cooperator any more than He needs a coreedemer or a comediatrix...”

So, you’re saying God saves everyone against their will? You can’t have it both ways. You can’t contradict yourself like that and expect to be taken seriously. If you believe men are saved against their will, then you’re foolish at best. If you believe men are not saved against their will, then you must reconcile that fact with “Working together” in scripture.

How about really, really, really???

My question still stands: “I never once mentioned salvation in regard to Matthew 3:7-9. Yet you claim I did. Why misconstrue what I so clearly wrote? I wrote: “...about repentence: In Matthew 3:7–9, John says to the Pharisees...” and again “It is a call to turn away from sin. Sincere repentance requires turning away from sin.”
Where in that paragraph do you see me mention either the word or concept of salvation? Where? I hope you have the courage to answer that question. I really, really do.”

“If you don’t think it has to do with salvation, why did you bring it up...”

Because it proves the scriptural truth about repentence that you denied. Rather than deal with it as the proof it is, you misconstrued it as a proof text about salvation. I said nothing about salvation.

“You’re trying to prove that this repentance has something to do with cooperating with Jesus...If it has nothing to do with Salvation, it has nothing to do with you...”

It has to do with repentence. You denied the scriptural reality of what repentence is. You denied that repentence included turning away from sin. The verses I posted showed that repentence includes turning away from sin.

And not surprisingly, after denying the truth about repentence, then apparently pretending the verses were posted as a proof text about salvation, you are now apparently pretending to not remember that they were posted in regard to repentence. This is remarkable considering I wrote this: “...about repentence: In Matthew 3:7–9, John says to the Pharisees...” and again “It is a call to turn away from sin. Sincere repentance requires turning away from sin.”

“Jesus says we are saved by grace thru faith, without works...”

That doesn’t mean we are saved against our will.

“You claim it was ceremonial works...The Parisees were pretty big on ceremonial law but that didn’t help them...”

Yes, but with no repentence, no cooperation and no grace. Again, why do you think I posted Matthew 3 - which is ABOUT THE PHARISEES REFUSAL TO BE PROPERLY REPENTANT. Pay attention. How can you ignore the obvious fact that Matthew 3 is about the Pharisees.

“Matthew tells you that you must feed and clothe the poor, and visit people in prison or you doomed...That’s called good works...”

That’s called charity. What does James say about faith and charity in James 2?

“Grace is defined as ‘unmerited favor’...Those people in Matthew didn’t have any unmerited favor...They had to provide good works...They had to (after John the Baptist) believe that Jesus was their Saviour and do good things as well...Show me where the Grace was...”

The grace was with Christ and remained with Him until the death of Christ on the Cross. You’re only proving my point. Absolutely nothing you’ve said changes this fact: You can’t be saved against your will.

“You may show up at the Last Judgement...I won’t be there...”

Everyone will. All will be judged. EVERYONE.

“Why invent a goofy question like this???”

It’s not goofy just because you can’t answer it.

“God says were are ‘sealed’ with the Holy Spirit...You don’t believe God???”

I do. I also believe men can resist God and fall away from Him.

“Of course we can sin against God...We all do...Every day...What’s God’s reaction??? He may get out his ‘board of education’ and have a serious talk with you...He may wait til you get to heaven and take you out behind the woodshed...”

And if you renounce Him? Will you still be saved? Will you really go to heaven if you deny Christ?

“In all liklihood, a Hindu was probably never a Christian to begin with...”

That’s a common and completely ineffectual response from many OSAS believers. The simple reality is that there are people - intelligent, educated, once God-fearing people - who, for whatever reason, lose their faith, and even renounce Jesus. It’s happened. There are Christians - including Protestants ministers - who have become Muslims. Is that not a denial of Christ? Are you really going to claim these people were never Christians? Sorry, but they - and everyone who knows them - would insist otherwise.

What you’re trying is an OSAS gambit. Unfortunately, it denies reality.

“One may turn against God...Or turn off God...But I don’t believe on could turn to ‘another’ God after being filled with the Holy Spirit...”

You don’t believe? Reality has little to do with what you believe then. Men defy God. They reject God. And sadly, they can worship false gods. By the way, do you believe Catholics are Christians then who DO NOT worship false gods? If you believe we are Christians, and you don’t believe those who have been filled with the Holy Spirit can turn to “another” god, then you don’t believe it is possible for Catholics to be idolators. So, even if we pray to Mary - according to your logic (IF you believe we are Christians) - we are not doing anything wrong, right?

So, what will it be? Will you now say that Catholics were never Christians to begin with?

That would be amusing for you to say at this point. Do you know why?

Think about those Protestants who become Catholics. I guess you’ll have to either say that (if Catholics are not Christians) then those Protestant converts have turned “to ‘another’ God after being filled with the Holy Spirit...”

If you’re going to say that Catholics are Christians, then praying to Mary can’t be wrong because it can’t be idolatry since we would - according to your logic - never turn to another god, false god, etc.

So, which is it?

I can’t wait to see your answer.

“Keeping the ralationship intact and losing the Holy Spirit are two competely different things...They have nothing to do with each other...”

The former is the denial of the latter. If the relationship is intact, then the Holy Spirit will not be lost.

“Absolutely...Another thing you apparently don’t know is that being indwelt with the Holy Spirit and being filled with the Holy Spirit are two differnt things...”

You can’t even understand the phrase “Working together” yet.

“Yep...I left home...But I didn’t quit the family...And I wasn’t kicked out of the family...”

But people have been. To deny reality because a particular situation hasn’t happened to you is a sign that you are losing the argument to say the least.

“You are obviously writing for a gullable audience...You were talking about saved people, filled with the Holy Spirit, NOW you trying to install unsaved people into the mix and point your skinny finger at me for saying something I didn’t say...”

Why dodge my questions? Why are you afraid about who is reading this? I already asked you about a Christian denying Christ and becoming a Hindu and you dodged those questions too? Why are you so afraid?

Here is what I wrote:

“So there’s no difference with hating and denying God and loving and having faith in God? You are now claiming that men with no faith in Christ can be saved. Way to go Iscool! You just sold out the gospel of grace as a pile of rags.”

If a man loses all his faith in Christ - but was once a Christian - will he still go to heaven? Yes or no?

“You sure are hung up on cooperate and it’s not even a bible word...”

“Working together” is. Keep dodging, Iscool.

“Jesus never used that word...Why say cooperate instead of love???”