You wrote:
“I do not believe any Christian has ever become a muzlim...”
That would only be proof that you are out of touch with reality because it is a fact that professing and believing Christians have lost their faith and become members of other religions. To deny this is to deny reality.
“There are Protestant pastors and Catholic priests who are NOT Christians...”
According to what standard? Yours? Again, you’re out of touch with reality so how can your standard make any sense.
“There are three people who know whether you and I are a Christian...You/me, God and Satan...”
Yet you assume that all those who do what you deny can be done were never Christian in the first place.
“Cooperate does not mean openness...”
Does it mean closed? Please think.
“Check any dictionary...How can you defend cooperation when you don’t even know what it means???”
“Working together” - is that cooperation? And that’s what scripture says. Don’t play games saying I don’t know what cooperation means. If God comes to you, and you cooperate with His grace, that means you’re open to it rather than refuse it. It’s that simple.
“Why do you keep repeating that??? I already told you no one can get saved against their will...”
Then we must cooperate. There are only three possibilities: 1) we resist (and are damned), 2) we cooperate (and are not damned), or 3) we do not resist actively nor do we cooperate. And that would still be passive resistance so we would be damned.
Make your choice.
“Actually I already know your reasoning...As a Catholic, you mistakenly think you are in a lifelong process of ‘getting saved’...”
Actually I am in a process of sanctification. Not justification. And you claim you know what we believe?
“Nope...I’ll be part of the first group which is called the first resurrection...My judgement will take place about a thousand years before yours...”
No. All will be at the Last Judgment. Our personal judgments are at different times.
“Hey, that’s me, over here...I’ll be reigning with Jesus Christ as a priest...”
No, probably not since you do not cooperate with His grace. But that is for Him to decide.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08552a.htm
“You notice here that Satan and his crew are set to attack the Saints, and the beloved city...AFTER a thousand year reign of Jesus on the earth, which you don’t believe...”
I don’t believe in latter-day Protestant interpretations. I believe the Bible, not you.
Wow, look at how you avoided almost all of my questions and points and went on a tangent about the Last Judgment.
Notice that?
Here’s what you avoided:
So, you’re saying God saves everyone against their will? You can’t have it both ways. You can’t contradict yourself like that and expect to be taken seriously. If you believe men are saved against their will, then you’re foolish at best. If you believe men are not saved against their will, then you must reconcile that fact with “Working together” in scripture.
How about really, really, really???
My question still stands: “I never once mentioned salvation in regard to Matthew 3:7-9. Yet you claim I did. Why misconstrue what I so clearly wrote? I wrote: “...about repentence: In Matthew 3:7–9, John says to the Pharisees...” and again “It is a call to turn away from sin. Sincere repentance requires turning away from sin.”
Where in that paragraph do you see me mention either the word or concept of salvation? Where? I hope you have the courage to answer that question. I really, really do.”
“If you don’t think it has to do with salvation, why did you bring it up...”
Because it proves the scriptural truth about repentence that you denied. Rather than deal with it as the proof it is, you misconstrued it as a proof text about salvation. I said nothing about salvation.
“You’re trying to prove that this repentance has something to do with cooperating with Jesus...If it has nothing to do with Salvation, it has nothing to do with you...”
It has to do with repentence. You denied the scriptural reality of what repentence is. You denied that repentence included turning away from sin. The verses I posted showed that repentence includes turning away from sin.
And not surprisingly, after denying the truth about repentence, then apparently pretending the verses were posted as a proof text about salvation, you are now apparently pretending to not remember that they were posted in regard to repentence. This is remarkable considering I wrote this: “...about repentence: In Matthew 3:7–9, John says to the Pharisees...” and again “It is a call to turn away from sin. Sincere repentance requires turning away from sin.”
“Jesus says we are saved by grace thru faith, without works...”
That doesn’t mean we are saved against our will.
“You claim it was ceremonial works...The Parisees were pretty big on ceremonial law but that didn’t help them...”
Yes, but with no repentence, no cooperation and no grace. Again, why do you think I posted Matthew 3 - which is ABOUT THE PHARISEES REFUSAL TO BE PROPERLY REPENTANT. Pay attention. How can you ignore the obvious fact that Matthew 3 is about the Pharisees.
“Matthew tells you that you must feed and clothe the poor, and visit people in prison or you doomed...That’s called good works...”
That’s called charity. What does James say about faith and charity in James 2?
“Grace is defined as ‘unmerited favor’...Those people in Matthew didn’t have any unmerited favor...They had to provide good works...They had to (after John the Baptist) believe that Jesus was their Saviour and do good things as well...Show me where the Grace was...”
The grace was with Christ and remained with Him until the death of Christ on the Cross. You’re only proving my point. Absolutely nothing you’ve said changes this fact: You can’t be saved against your will.
“In all liklihood, a Hindu was probably never a Christian to begin with...”
That’s a common and completely ineffectual response from many OSAS believers. The simple reality is that there are people - intelligent, educated, once God-fearing people - who, for whatever reason, lose their faith, and even renounce Jesus. It’s happened. There are Christians - including Protestants ministers - who have become Muslims. Is that not a denial of Christ? Are you really going to claim these people were never Christians? Sorry, but they - and everyone who knows them - would insist otherwise.
What you’re trying is an OSAS gambit. Unfortunately, it denies reality.
“One may turn against God...Or turn off God...But I don’t believe on could turn to ‘another’ God after being filled with the Holy Spirit...”
You don’t believe? Reality has little to do with what you believe then. Men defy God. They reject God. And sadly, they can worship false gods. By the way, do you believe Catholics are Christians then who DO NOT worship false gods? If you believe we are Christians, and you don’t believe those who have been filled with the Holy Spirit can turn to “another” god, then you don’t believe it is possible for Catholics to be idolators. So, even if we pray to Mary - according to your logic (IF you believe we are Christians) - we are not doing anything wrong, right?
So, what will it be? Will you now say that Catholics were never Christians to begin with?
That would be amusing for you to say at this point. Do you know why?
Think about those Protestants who become Catholics. I guess you’ll have to either say that (if Catholics are not Christians) then those Protestant converts have turned “to ‘another’ God after being filled with the Holy Spirit...”
OR
If you’re going to say that Catholics are Christians, then praying to Mary can’t be wrong because it can’t be idolatry since we would - according to your logic - never turn to another god, false god, etc.
So, which is it?
I can’t wait to see your answer.
“Keeping the ralationship intact and losing the Holy Spirit are two competely different things...They have nothing to do with each other...”
The former is the denial of the latter. If the relationship is intact, then the Holy Spirit will not be lost.
“Absolutely...Another thing you apparently don’t know is that being indwelt with the Holy Spirit and being filled with the Holy Spirit are two differnt things...”
You can’t even understand the phrase “Working together” yet.
“Yep...I left home...But I didn’t quit the family...And I wasn’t kicked out of the family...”
But people have been. To deny reality because a particular situation hasn’t happened to you is a sign that you are losing the argument to say the least.
“You are obviously writing for a gullable audience...You were talking about saved people, filled with the Holy Spirit, NOW you trying to install unsaved people into the mix and point your skinny finger at me for saying something I didn’t say...”
Why dodge my questions? Why are you afraid about who is reading this? I already asked you about a Christian denying Christ and becoming a Hindu and you dodged those questions too? Why are you so afraid?
Here is what I wrote:
“So there’s no difference with hating and denying God and loving and having faith in God? You are now claiming that men with no faith in Christ can be saved. Way to go Iscool! You just sold out the gospel of grace as a pile of rags.”
If a man loses all his faith in Christ - but was once a Christian - will he still go to heaven? Yes or no?
“You sure are hung up on cooperate and it’s not even a bible word...”
“Working together” is. Keep dodging, Iscool.
“Jesus never used that word...Why say cooperate instead of love???”
“Working together” the Bible says.
It would be really nice if you actually answered my questions and dealt with my points.
Think you can handle that?
Eh, so you're getting judged twice...
That would only be proof that you are out of touch with reality because it is a fact that professing and believing Christians have lost their faith and become members of other religions. To deny this is to deny reality.
Really??? How does that work then??? You kick the Holy Spirit out of your body??? Or does He just get bored and leave your body??? At what point does the Holy Spirit leave your body??? When you sin??? After you haven't made a confession for 45 days???
“Working together” - is that cooperation? And that’s what scripture says. Don’t play games saying I don’t know what cooperation means. If God comes to you, and you cooperate with His grace, that means you’re open to it rather than refuse it. It’s that simple.
You are one confused puppy...No one gets Saved by cooperating...
Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
You don't cooperate with grace to gain salvation...You call on the name of THAT one who died for all...
At one time in this conversation you equate cooperation to work...Now,you claim it's openness...Make up your mind...Openness and works are not the same thing...And NEITHER one of those will bring you into the presence of Jesus...
“You notice here that Satan and his crew are set to attack the Saints, and the beloved city...AFTER a thousand year reign of Jesus on the earth, which you don’t believe...”
I don’t believe in latter-day Protestant interpretations. I believe the Bible, not you.
Wasn't any interpretation involved...Just readin' what it says...If you don't want to believe what it says, have at it...
Here’s what you avoided:
So, you’re saying God saves everyone against their will? You can’t have it both ways. You can’t contradict yourself like that and expect to be taken seriously. If you believe men are saved against their will, then you’re foolish at best. If you believe men are not saved against their will, then you must reconcile that fact with “Working together” in scripture.
LOL...I've answered you time and again...And NO, I don't have to reconcile your very faulty notion of what constitutes Salvation...We do NOT work with Jesus for our Salvation...It's a FREE GIFT...We SEEK Jesus and ASK him for the FREE GIFT...We work with Him AFTER He has given us the FREE GIFT...And it is He who does the works in us...
And like the Prodgal son; if we turn from God, He is anxious for us to return...We are NOT disowned; kicked out...Our home is STILL our home...We will not lose our inheritance...We may not get the best robes, or the many gifts, but we still have a home...