Conclusion from Peru and Mexico

ESV Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

In recent days I have spent time in Lima and Sullana Peru and Mexico City and I have discovered that people by nature are the same. Man has a heart that is inclined to selfishness and idolatry. Sin abounds in the remotest parts of the land because the heart is desperately wicked. Thousands bow before statues of Mary and pray to her hoping for answers. I have seen these people stare hopelessly at Mary icons, Jesus icons, and a host of dead saints who will do nothing for them. I have talked with people who pray to the pope and say that they love him. I talked with one lady who said that she knew that Jesus was the Savior, but she loved the pope. Thousands bow before Santa Muerte (holy death angel) in hopes that she will do whatever they ask her. I have seen people bring money, burning cigarettes, beer, whiskey, chocolate, plants, and flowers to Santa Muerte in hopes of her answers. I have seen these people bowing on their knees on the concrete in the middle of public places to worship their idol. Millions of people come into the Basilica in Mexico City and pay their money, confess their sins, and stare hopelessly at relics in hope that their sins will be pardoned. In America countless thousands are chained to baseball games, football games, material possessions, and whatever else their heart of idols can produce to worship.

My heart has broken in these last weeks because the God of heaven is not honored as he ought to be honored. People worship the things that are created rather than worshiping the Creator. God has been gracious to all mankind and yet mankind has hardened their hearts against a loving God. God brings the rain on the just and unjust. God brings the beautiful sunrises and sunsets upon the just and unjust. God gives good gifts unto all and above all things he has given his Son that those who would believe in him would be saved. However, man has taken the good things of God and perverted them unto idols and turned their attention away from God. I get a feel for Jesus as he overlooked Jerusalem or Paul as he beseeched for God to save Israel. When you accept the reality of the truth of the glory of God is breaks your heart that people would turn away from the great and awesome God of heaven to serve lesser things. Moses was outraged by the golden calf, the prophets passionately preached against idolatry, Jesus was angered that the temple was changed in an idolatrous business, and Paul preached to the idolaters of Mars Hill by telling them of the unknown God.

I arrived back at home wondering how I should respond to all the idolatry that I have beheld in these last three weeks. I wondered how our church here in the states should respond to all of the idolatry in the world. What are the options? First, I suppose we could sit around and hope that people chose to get their life together and stop being idolaters. However, I do not know how that could ever happen apart from them hearing the truth. Second, I suppose we could spend a lifetime studying cultural issues and customs in hope that we could somehow learn to relate to the people of other countries. However, the bible is quite clear that all men are the same. Men are dead in sin, shaped in iniquity, and by nature are the enemies of God. Thirdly, we could pay other people or other agencies to go and do a work for us while we remain comfortably in the states. However, there is no way to insure that there will be doctrinal accuracy or integrity. If we only pay other people to take the gospel we will miss out on all of the benefits of being obedient to the mission of God. Lastly, we could seek where God would have us to do a lasting work and then invest our lives there for the glory of God. The gospel has the power to raise the dead in any culture and we must be willing to take the gospel wherever God would have us take it. It is for sure that our church cannot go to every country and reach every people group, so we must determine where God would have us work and seek to be obedient wherever that is.

It seems that some doors are opening in the Spanish speaking countries below us and perhaps God is beginning to reveal where we are to work. There are some options for work to be partnered with in Peru and there could be a couple of options in Mexico. The need is greater than I can express upon this paper for a biblical gospel to be proclaimed in Peru and Mexico. Oh, that God would glorify his great name in Peru and Mexico by using a small little church in a town that does not exist to proclaim his great gospel amongst a people who desperately need the truth.

I give thanks to the LORD for allowing me the privilege of going to these countries and broadening my horizons. The things that I have seen will be forever engraved upon my heart. I will long remember the pastors that I spent time with in Peru and I will never forget Adolfo who translated for me in Mexico. I will relish the time that I spent with Paul Washer and the others. When I think of church I will forever remember being on top of that mountain in Sullana at that church which had no electricity and no roof. I am convinced that heaven was looking down on that little church on top of that mountain and very few people on earth even know that it exist. Oh, God I pray that the things of this world will continue to grow dim and that God’s people will be caught up in his glorious presence.

Because of the truth: Pastor: J. Randall Easter II Timothy 2:19 "Our God is in heaven and does whatever He pleases."(Ps. 115:3) "He predestined us according to the good pleasure of His will."(Eph. 1:5) Those who have been saved have been saved for His glory and they are being made holy for this is the will of God. Are you being made holy? Spurgeon says, "If your religion does not make you holy it will damn you to hell."

If they are going to heaven no matter what, it matters not what they do or don’t do; nor does it matter why.

We've explained that it's not the free pass you guys make it out to be, but nobody listens. POTS teaches that God will prevent His children from committing sin SUCH THAT it would cause the loss of salvation. It IS theoretically possible to lose salvation, but God promises it won't happen. THEREFORE, it is as good as impossible since God's promises are better than gold.

If (God forbid), Forest Keeper (e.g.) was of the selected elected elite and decided that he would spend the rest of his life murdering left handed Carmelite nuns simply because it occurred to him to do it, then he would go to the Reformed heaven regardless of his actions.

Nope. Either God would prevent it by changing my mind, or He would take me out before I took anyone else out, or I was never of the elect in the first place. Under these conditions I would have no reason to think I was going to Heaven.

Preaching the Gospel to the unelected still appears to me to be taunting them with blessings that they can never attain; preaching the Gospel to the elected is a waste since they are saved to the Reformed heaven no matter what anyone does or does not do.

No one can know who the elect and the unelect are, save God. Therefore, we treat everyone as presumptively elect and preach to everyone. That's what God tells us to do in the Great Commission. OTOH, the elect still have to believe and be saved within time. Therefore, preaching to them, whoever they are, is always worthwhile. Actions do matter.

I’m still not sure how God gets glorified with creating and then predestining human barbeques. Is it the thrill of the spectacle that so attracts the Reformed God?

God is glorified because they are used to fulfill His purpose, such as at the crucifixion. Perhaps some believe that the crucifixion was just a wild coincidence that happened to work out so that we could be saved. A random chance occurrence. I don't understand that thinking because it involves an unloving and extremely weak God, but in any event we say that God planned it all out well in advance, so He was glorified when it all came to fruition.

POTS teaches that God will prevent His children from committing sin SUCH THAT it would cause the loss of salvation

Not according to 1 Peter, and other biblical verses.

It IS theoretically possible to lose salvation, but God promises it won't happen

God promises those who come to Him on their own, who respond to His call. He doesn't hijack and He doesn't force anyone to love Him.

Either God would prevent it by changing my mind, or He would take me out before I took anyone else out, or I was never of the elect in the first place

Not according to Luther.

No one can know who the elect and the unelect are, save God. Therefore, we treat everyone as presumptively elect and preach to everyone

Who's "we?" The "elect?" I though you just said no one know who the elect are.

That's what God tells us to do in the Great Commission

Actually, that is not necessarily what He says. The Greek word used in the Great Commission is ethne, which also means "tribes,", the tribes of Israel (the lost sheep) in scattering (from the days of the Babylonian captivity), in Africa and Asia Minor. Remember that Jesus specifically says He was sent for the lost sheep of Israel and not the Gentiles.

OTOH, the elect still have to believe and be saved within time. Therefore, preaching to them, whoever they are, is always worthwhile. Actions do matter

If they are not saved then they are not elect. If they are "saved" they are "saved" and no amount of preaching or teaching or praying will change anything according to the Reformed theology.

Mark: I’m still not sure how God gets glorified with creating and then predestining human barbeques.

FK: God is glorified because they are used to fulfill His purpose

His purpose is to eternally torture those who had been condemned before they existed? What "God" is that? Baal?

Perhaps some believe that the crucifixion was just a wild coincidence that happened to work out so that we could be saved

It was a rescue, God's intervention. It was ushering the New Covenant, redemption of humanity. Do you suppose God planned the Flood too? Or does God just delight in premeditated drowning and killing in general?

A random chance occurrence. I don't understand that thinking because it involves an unloving and extremely weak God, but in any event we say that God planned it all out well in advance, so He was glorified when it all came to fruition

God gave man choices. It wasn't random. But if God planned everything than He is the author of everything, good and evil, and his name is probably Baal.

K:"“Huh? The Holy Spirit, the Giver of Life?”"

bd:"I thought Jesus was the “Life”?"

Interesting. Of course the Creed says:

"Καὶ εἰς τὸ Πνεῦμα τὸ Ἅγιον, τὸ κύριον, τὸ ζωοποιόν,..."

"And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Giver of Life...."

Earlier, the Creed also says of Christ:

"τὸν δι' ἡμᾶς τοὺς ἀνθρώπους καὶ διὰ τὴν ἡμετέραν σωτηρίαν κατελθόντα ἐκ τῶν οὐρανῶν καὶ σαρκωθέντα ἐκ πνεύματος ἁγίου καὶ Μαρίας τῆς παρθένου καὶ ἐνανθρωπήσαντα,..."

"who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary, and was made man"

So the HS is the divine "source" of the incarnate Christ as well as the Lord, the Giver of Life" for everything and everyone else.

I thought Jesus was the “Life”?

Kolo is correct is citing the Creed. Christ came to us through the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary. Jesus is Life. The Holy Spirit is the Giver of Life.

"The Spirit gives life." [John 6"63]

Obedience, obedience, that’s the ticket. God told us to pray this was, “Our Father....” and do so in Jesus name with the aid of the Holy Spirit who helps our infirmities

Then how are they all the same God? If the Father is the only one to be prayed to, where does that leave Jesus and the Holy Spirit? God's "helpers?"

If God is Trinity, then is it not proper to pray in the name of the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit? And when we say God, do we not mean all Three Hypostases, and not just the Father?

From the way you write, it sounds like we are only to pray the Lord's Prayer and in the name of Jesus Christ, with the aid [sic] of the Holy Spirit.

As I wrote earlier, I have a feeling that our Trinitarian theologies are fundamentally different, and that Reformed are believe in a tiered and subordianed Trinity. After all, aren't the LDS also "tirnitarian" in name only?

Please tell me if the Son and the Holy Spirit are said to be co-equal with the Father in the Reformed theology.

“One thing is certain: no one speaks the 17th century version of British English found in KJV.”

May I ask what council decided such criteria, that sufficient numbers of people actually use a particular style of Biblical text in their every day speech habits, for that text to continue to be a valid and useful text? Whio made up this rule.

There is another thing also for certain: literally of millions and millions of believers worldwide still sat with an open copy of that 17th century English Bible in their lap this Sunday, and benefited, and grew, and worshipped. I will testify that that 17th century Book still gets the job done today, just as it did in years prior to 1940, when virtually all non-Catholic preachers had that text in their pulpits.

According to Mark and Matthew, the Sanhedrin asked Jesus not only if He was the Son of God, but specifically if He was the anointed (Greek: cristoV, christos) Son of God, which was the title of the kings of Israel, to which He answered in the affirmative but produced no evidence to support it.

Then when it comes to not producing evidence to your satisfaction, I'm in good company. :) What errant Jews thought at the time is irrelevant. Jesus claimed to be God (John 8:58 : "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"). He said He was THE Son of God (which Peter confirmed), not "a" son of God. What the angel told Mary at the Annunciation is proof. In addition, He performed miracles and He claimed to have the authority to forgive sins. Even the Jews understood that only God can forgive sins. The Bible is absolutely clear on the matter. And if you reject the Bible's teaching and only believe that Jesus is God because the fallible men of your Church command you to, then at least you have that one right. :)

The Bible does say that he prayed to the Father, but how much of that is a fact? For instance, on the night of His betrayal, He is quoted as asking the Father if He could take away the bitter cup...but it also says that all the Apostles were asleep and that Jesus was by Himself. So, how do they know what He did? Who witnessed it?

God witnessed it and caused the authors of the Bible to write down what actually happened. But you are right that if the Bible was simply written by men doing the best they could, then many many things would have to be thrown out. Since I don't throw anything out in the Bible, I can't believe it happened that way. "God-breathed" actually means something important.

Being fully human, it only makes sense that He would pray to the triune God and not only to the Father.

Just as BD said, we pray as the Bible tells us to pray in form. Are we wrong for following the scriptures? Do you all pray to individual members of the Trinity separately? As in, "Jesus, this is just for you but not for the Spirit"? If so, why? When I pray "Dear Heavenly Father" I am really addressing the full Trinity, the one true God. How is this explained? They are all ONE.

What errant Jews thought at the time is irrelevant.

It is relevant because that's what they were asking: questions relevant to their faith.

Jesus claimed to be God (John 8:58 : "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"

John was written at the end of the century. Earlier Gospels do not share John's memory or Christ's divinity.

Given the proliferation of groups denying Jesus' divinity (such as Ebionites) in the latter part of the 1st century, one can understand that there was a need for a Gospel reaffirming that Christ is God, and not just an anointed human messiah.

Now, something caused the way the Apostles changed form being scarred and doubtful to fearless advocates even unto torture and martyrdom.

When Christ was betrayed, the disciples scattered like scared little bunnies. And even after His resurrection, they still doubted and all the way until the Pentecost (Mat 28:17). After the sending of the Holy Spirit, the Church becomes transformed from followers to converts.

Now, to me this is significant. They knew something and that something made them fearless and determined, something all of Jesus' miracles couldn't accomplish. It was the Spirit, who proceeds form the Father, that accomplished this.

It produced believers willing to die for the faith, but it does not, in and of itself, prove Jesus' divinity. I am not saying that He is not divine (God forbid!), but I am saying that there was a need for the Gospel of John stressing that Jesus is God.

Even the Jews understood that only God can forgive sins

Not in heaven! Jesus said "But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins" [Mark 2:10]

Please note that the expression "Son of Man" is "ben Adam" in Hebrew or "bar Adam" in Aramaic. It merely means a descendent of man and should be more correctly translated as the "Son of Adam" but then it looses its "mystical" meaning as we are all the sons of Adam.

The Bible is absolutely clear on the matter. And if you reject the Bible's teaching and only believe that Jesus is God because the fallible men of your Church command you to, then at least you have that one right

It's really sad that you have to throw mud on the Church because of what I, as a private citizen, have to say about the Bible. I have repeatedly explained that these are my views and not official Orthodox doctrine. I represent myself, my beliefs and my opinions.

I guarantee you that the Church commands no one to believe that Christ is not divine. To claim that it does is ignorant and untrue. You could spend the rest of your life trying to prove that it does and will die trying. You could not find a single example in anything the Church teaches that would support your claim.

"God-breathed" actually means something important.

Yes, "animated by God," brought to life by God.

Do you all pray to individual members of the Trinity separately?

Sometimes. For instance the very important hesychastic Jesus Prayer (not practiced in the West) says "Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, the sinner."

Another would be this liturgical prayer

Christ our God, You are the fulfillment of the Law and the prophets. You have fulfilled all the dispensation of the Father. Fill our hearts with joy and gladness always, now and forever and to the ages of ages. Amen.

or this one

Having beheld the resurrection of Christ, let us worship the holy Lord Jesus, the only Sinless One. We venerate Your cross, O Christ, and we praise and glorify Your holy resurrection. You are our God. We know no other than You, and we call upon Your name.

Usually it's a prayer to God and the Three Hypostases, such as

The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God the Father, and the communion of the Holy Spirit, be with all of you

Or, more commonly

It is proper and right to sing to You, bless You, praise You, thank You and worship You in all places of Your dominion; for You are God ineffable, beyond comprehension, invisible, beyond understanding, existing forever and always the same; You and Your only begotten Son and Your Holy Spirit [Holy Anaphora]

As in, "Jesus, this is just for you but not for the Spirit"?

No, it shouldn't really matter because a prayer to one is a prayer to the same God. But in some instances, in the context of the economy of our salvation, it is proper to address one Hypostasis in particular (such as the Holy Spirit who accomplishes the sacraments).

FK: "So when Jesus immediately answered with this ...: Matt 16:17 : Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.... you are saying that Jesus was lying, or that the Father lied in His revelation."

Absolutely not. Jesus confirmed that He is the (literal) Son of God even though the Jews (including +Peter) did not believe it. +Peter was saying that He is the moshiach (Jewish messiah), not that He is divine. No one believed that at that time. But Christ knew and He affirmed it.

But Jesus affirmed that what Peter said was from the Father. At best you are saying that Jesus misled them by not responding to what was said, as it was intended. And Jesus knew exactly what was going on of course. IOW, you are accusing Jesus of using some type of lawyer's trick. Wouldn't that be among the worst blasphemies? :) Plus, what possible purpose could it serve for Jesus to mislead so greatly TO His own disciples? Jesus said many things they didn't understand, but He never misled them. That would be Jesus imitating satan.

You have Jesus admitting that He is human but not divine. If Peter meant as you say, then Jesus steered him totally down the wrong path. Why would Jesus do this disservice? You are forced into saying that the Father also wished to mislead His disciples.

The divine liturgy underwent some non-essential cosmetic changes, but the liturgy is essentially the same as it was used 1,700 years ago.

But you are telling me, I think, that one reason we cannot trust the Bible is that so many words have changed in their common usage over 2,000 years (you noted that in general English "gay" doesn't mean "gay" anymore, etc.). YET, you tell me that the liturgy has remained virtually the same over the last 1,700 years. IOW, you are saying that the words of the liturgy survive the test of time, but the words of scripture do not. Isn't that correct?

The problems with translations started when Luther decided to go "native" and invent literary German on the fly.

No doubt Luther's perverted wish for his own people to be able to read the scriptures in their own language was a grievous error. Do you have related views of the printing press? :) It's interesting though, that you do not seem to have a problem with translating Hebrew into Greek. In fact, you prefer it. :)

Christianity retained Judaic words but assumed different meanings, in line with the new belief. Thus the words such as "the Spirit of God," the "Son of God," "Messiah," the "World to Come," the "End Times," the Satan, etc. attained different, even radically unrelated meanings in Christianity from what they used to, and still mean in Judaism.

If that's the case, then why do you have Jesus affirming the errant Judaic meanings to His own disciples? That makes no sense to me. He was here in part to teach, right? If so, then it looks like you have Him doing a pretty poor job. :)

Well, to be a stickler: Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God (Romans 10:17).

That's true, and I would add that the word comes from God and the hearing is because of God changing the heart (Ezek. 36:26 et seq.). Therefore, faith comes from God.

[On Eph. 2:8-9] The antecedent of "that" (singular neuter) is not faith, otherwise it would be in the same gender as "faith" (feminine); it is not grace, otherwise it would be in the same gender as "grace" (masculine); instead it is referring to "the incomparable riches" (το υπερβαλλον πλουτος, singular neuter) of his grace in the preceding verse.

Then if faith is not the gift of God, do you say that man generates his own faith?

No one has the excuse, "Well, God never gifted me with faith, so I can't be blamed for not believing in him."

The Bible says that no man has an excuse, but it doesn't say that man rules his own destiny. I believe the weight of scriptures tell of a completely sovereign God.

“Jesus said many things they didn't understand, but He never misled them.”

That is true, obviously. In Matthew 16 itself, actually, our Lord told the disciples of His soon-to-come sufferings in Jerusalem, and Peter declared that it would never happen to Him (Matt. 16:21, 22). Peter even REBUKED the Lord for it!

And in subsequent announcements of the same, they did not understand and it is said even to be “hidden” from them (Luke 18:33, 34).

The Twelve did not understand the work of the Cross and Resurrection until AFTER the Resurrection.

If the Gospel we preach and by which we are saved now of necessity includes the Death, Burial, and Resurrection of Christ (1 Cor. 15:1-4), then the Gospel that the Twelve and the Seventy were commissioned to preach during Christ's earthly ministry (Matthew 10; Luke 9, 10) had to be a different message, because they did not understand the sufferings of Christ.

Further, Paul was given advanced revelation from the Head of the Church seated in the heavenly places after the Resurrection and detailed after Acts ch. 28, that Peter himself had a hard time understanding (see 2 Peter 3:15, 16).

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