Posted on 01/27/2008 7:56:14 PM PST by Manfred the Wonder Dawg
January 25, 2008
ESV Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
In recent days I have spent time in Lima and Sullana Peru and Mexico City and I have discovered that people by nature are the same. Man has a heart that is inclined to selfishness and idolatry. Sin abounds in the remotest parts of the land because the heart is desperately wicked. Thousands bow before statues of Mary and pray to her hoping for answers. I have seen these people stare hopelessly at Mary icons, Jesus icons, and a host of dead saints who will do nothing for them. I have talked with people who pray to the pope and say that they love him. I talked with one lady who said that she knew that Jesus was the Savior, but she loved the pope. Thousands bow before Santa Muerte (holy death angel) in hopes that she will do whatever they ask her. I have seen people bring money, burning cigarettes, beer, whiskey, chocolate, plants, and flowers to Santa Muerte in hopes of her answers. I have seen these people bowing on their knees on the concrete in the middle of public places to worship their idol. Millions of people come into the Basilica in Mexico City and pay their money, confess their sins, and stare hopelessly at relics in hope that their sins will be pardoned. In America countless thousands are chained to baseball games, football games, material possessions, and whatever else their heart of idols can produce to worship.
My heart has broken in these last weeks because the God of heaven is not honored as he ought to be honored. People worship the things that are created rather than worshiping the Creator. God has been gracious to all mankind and yet mankind has hardened their hearts against a loving God. God brings the rain on the just and unjust. God brings the beautiful sunrises and sunsets upon the just and unjust. God gives good gifts unto all and above all things he has given his Son that those who would believe in him would be saved. However, man has taken the good things of God and perverted them unto idols and turned their attention away from God. I get a feel for Jesus as he overlooked Jerusalem or Paul as he beseeched for God to save Israel. When you accept the reality of the truth of the glory of God is breaks your heart that people would turn away from the great and awesome God of heaven to serve lesser things. Moses was outraged by the golden calf, the prophets passionately preached against idolatry, Jesus was angered that the temple was changed in an idolatrous business, and Paul preached to the idolaters of Mars Hill by telling them of the unknown God.
I arrived back at home wondering how I should respond to all the idolatry that I have beheld in these last three weeks. I wondered how our church here in the states should respond to all of the idolatry in the world. What are the options? First, I suppose we could sit around and hope that people chose to get their life together and stop being idolaters. However, I do not know how that could ever happen apart from them hearing the truth. Second, I suppose we could spend a lifetime studying cultural issues and customs in hope that we could somehow learn to relate to the people of other countries. However, the bible is quite clear that all men are the same. Men are dead in sin, shaped in iniquity, and by nature are the enemies of God. Thirdly, we could pay other people or other agencies to go and do a work for us while we remain comfortably in the states. However, there is no way to insure that there will be doctrinal accuracy or integrity. If we only pay other people to take the gospel we will miss out on all of the benefits of being obedient to the mission of God. Lastly, we could seek where God would have us to do a lasting work and then invest our lives there for the glory of God. The gospel has the power to raise the dead in any culture and we must be willing to take the gospel wherever God would have us take it. It is for sure that our church cannot go to every country and reach every people group, so we must determine where God would have us work and seek to be obedient wherever that is.
It seems that some doors are opening in the Spanish speaking countries below us and perhaps God is beginning to reveal where we are to work. There are some options for work to be partnered with in Peru and there could be a couple of options in Mexico. The need is greater than I can express upon this paper for a biblical gospel to be proclaimed in Peru and Mexico. Oh, that God would glorify his great name in Peru and Mexico by using a small little church in a town that does not exist to proclaim his great gospel amongst a people who desperately need the truth.
I give thanks to the LORD for allowing me the privilege of going to these countries and broadening my horizons. The things that I have seen will be forever engraved upon my heart. I will long remember the pastors that I spent time with in Peru and I will never forget Adolfo who translated for me in Mexico. I will relish the time that I spent with Paul Washer and the others. When I think of church I will forever remember being on top of that mountain in Sullana at that church which had no electricity and no roof. I am convinced that heaven was looking down on that little church on top of that mountain and very few people on earth even know that it exist. Oh, God I pray that the things of this world will continue to grow dim and that God’s people will be caught up in his glorious presence.
Because of the truth: Pastor: J. Randall Easter II Timothy 2:19 "Our God is in heaven and does whatever He pleases."(Ps. 115:3) "He predestined us according to the good pleasure of His will."(Eph. 1:5) Those who have been saved have been saved for His glory and they are being made holy for this is the will of God. Are you being made holy? Spurgeon says, "If your religion does not make you holy it will damn you to hell."
FK: I see. Well, then I'll agree with you that we should throw out the Consensus Patrum.
Consensus patrum refers to what is needed for the Church to teach as catholic faith. It's an internal ecclesiastical mechanism, a set standard and a system of checks-and-balances. It is not peddled outside the Church as universal truth to the non-believers.
That is, a system totally without proof, which is what you tell me you need. And I don't understand your last sentence. Is the internal truth of your faith not necessarily applicable to other people? When lost people inquire about Orthodoxy, do you tell them that your beliefs are not necessarily always true?
That being said, the example showing Christ in the OT are relatively scarce given the volume of books involved and definitely not a black-and-white, consensus-forming, clearly and unambiguously agreed-upon truth.
Does this mean that you would believe if there were more pages talking about Christ, "unambiguously", by your personal judgment, in the OT?
The Muslims, for instance, find Mohammad in Isaiah! Does that mean it is true? If you are a Muslim, it is!
I continue to find it strange that your side so often brings in Islam to discredit the Bible, AS IF, Islam has anything to do with Christianity. The point you all appear to be making is that SINCE there are some who get it SO 180 degrees wrong that MUST somehow be a reflection on the Bible itself. By your own standards then, there are billions who will have nothing to do with Orthodoxy or the patristic writings. THEREFORE they are wrong! Or, I and others have read some patristic writings and have seen some Reformed ideas. THEREFORE, those writings are wrong.
What proof do [Orthodox laity] offer?
For what? Their faith? By definition, people with faith need no proof and can't understand why the rest of the world doesn't believe as they do!
I am simply applying your own standards. You DEMAND proof, and you imply that my beliefs are not credible if I cannot give you proof to your satisfaction. What I'm driving at is that by your own standards there is absolutely no reason whatsoever that I should believe that Orthodoxy is the true faith since you can give me no proof. Your own tagline says Orthodoxy is "pure Christianity". Prove it. :)
So, based on this, we can very easily see why Jesus would say that even "Moses wrote about me." It's just that it wasn't necessarily about the Christian Christ so to say.
So again, you're saying that Jesus was lying. What other answer is there?
Exactly! How many times have we read that around here?
Just because some people are following the voice of their schauzer in their head does not mean that the Holy Spirit is not leading all whom God has called to come to Him in faith and revealing Himself on every page of holy Scripture.
No you didn't, FK. You showed me scripture in which He is quoted as saying that He is the Son of God.
And I showed you scriptural evidence that the title "son(s) of God" or "child/children of God" was never used for anyone divine in the entire Bible.
According to Mark and Matthew, the Sanhedrin asked Jesus not only if He was the Son of God, but specifically if He was the anointed (Greek: cristoV, christos) Son of God, which was the title of the kings of Israel, to which He answered in the affirmative but produced no evidence to support it.
Specifically, the "anointed" or "favored by God" at that time was expected to be the messiah. Claiming to be the messiah (who, according to Judaic belief, is not divine), without supportive evidence, was blasphemy (i.e. gross disrespect) towards God for which Leviticus mandates death.
None of the Sanhedrin ever asked Jesus if He is God. None! And He never once said "Yes, I am God." He was not crucified because He claimed to be God. That is a Christian myth.
That doesn't mean that He is not God, the Messiah, the second Person of the Holy Trinity, fully divine and fully human, our Lord and Savior.
The Apostles came to realize His divinity (at least +John did), and the Church along with them, but it is clear that before He ascended to heaven, some of the 11 disciples still doubted it [Mat 28:17]!
So for you "Son of God" has no particularly important meaning as far as the Bible is concerned?
Of course it does! I am a Christain. I believe Jesus is the Incarnated eternal Word and Wisdom of God (Logos), the only-begotten of the Father, both divine and human, and "sitting" on the right side of the Father, who together with the Father and the Holy Spirit is worshiped and glorified, and who will return to judge the living and the dead.
What is your theory as to why Christ would hide His identity from the people, as you claim?
He didn't! Jesus said He was the Son of God. He meant it litteraly! But the Jews didn't. To the Jews (including the blessed Peter) the Son of God meant "man greatly favored by God" (you could say "full of grace" in the Christian jargon. In the Old Testament the Sons of God were were angels and the kings of Israel.
So according to you, when Jesus said "YES", He was lying???
Never. :)
I agree. It would be a lot more honest if they simply told them "Look, some of you will be saved no matter what, and some of you will be damned, no matter what. God made that decision before you even existed, so quit bellyaching. Those of you who will be saved will "know" it but others won't. Amen." End of preaching. This sums up the entire Reformed theology.
If (God forbid), Forest Keeper (e.g.) was of the selected elected elite and decided that he would spend the rest of his life murdering left handed Carmelite nuns simply because it occurred to him to do it, then he would go to the Reformed heaven regardless of his actions.
Reformed heaven? Is that like a refomed home for delinquents? (/sar) Sorry, FK, couldn't resist. :) It's not personal, FK. We do love you and I know you'd never do anything to left-handed Carmelite nuns unless they were dirty liberal democrats. :)
The Bible does say that he prayed to the Father, but how much of that is a fact? For instance, on the night of His betrayal, He is quoted as asking the Father if He could take away the bitter cup...but it also says that all the Apostles were asleep and that Jesus was by Himself. So, how do they know what He did? Who witnessed it?
The Apostles by and large saw Him as the Jewish messiah and as such, being human, He would pray to the Father along with other pious Jews. Being fully human, it only makes sense that He would pray to the triune God and not only to the Father.
Do you, Reformed, ever pray to the Holy Spirit? Or to Jesus alone? or to the Holy Trinity? I have a feeling, the Protestants pray to the Father but add "through our Lord Jesus Christ," treating Him only as a Mediator, a Conduit, and not as someone equal to the Father or the Spirit. If so, then your prayers betray a grave Trinitarian flaw.
Absolutely not. Jesus confirmed that He is the (literal) Son of God even though the Jews (including +Peter) did not believe it. +Peter was saying that He is the moshiach (Jewish messiah), not that He is divine. No one believed that at that time. But Christ knew and He affirmed it.
Therefore, we (Orthodox/Catholics) read the word "brothers" as cousins.
Then why doesn't the angel of the Lord say to Mary: "Luke 1:36 : 36 And, behold, thy [SISTER] Elisabeth
The word used is sugennhV (sugennes), which means a kin (compatriot), of the same kind, blood relative but not the first cousin.
The Greek word aneyioV, anepsios, which means sister's son, is the first cousin. The word for sister (same father and mother) is adeljh, adelphe.
So, calling Elizabeth sugennes implies that they were related, but she was neither her first cousin nor her sister.
The idea that their mothers were sisters comes from St. Hyppolitus, a prolific writer of the 3rd century AD, who is a saint only because of his martyrdom; his teachings were not always orthodox.
Most serious Bibles will use the word "kinswoman" or "relative." I can't say why the King James uses "cousin," but given the background of the KJV I am not the least bit surprised it would be off on that account too.
You are like a cornucopia of surprises, FK! :) We know that the Church interprets the scripture as we do today because of what the Apostolic Fathers and Church Fathers wrote about it at the end of the first, and through the second centuries, all the way through the 8th (end of patristic period). So, it is not just a 'claim' or 'belief,' but something a little more concrete.
The divine liturgy underwent some non-essential cosmetic changes, but the liturgy is essentially the same as it was used 1,700 years ago.
The languages of the divine liturgy are liturgical languages based on Greek, specifically developed for the liturgical service. As far as I know, they are all capable of expresisng the same concepts, word by word, as the Greek original. The problems with translations started when Luther decided to go "native" and invent literary German on the fly.
Why is it that the words of the Bible mean the opposite of (or something completely different from) what they say in many cases, but the early Fathers can be read straight out?
The biblical period predates Christianity as a religion. Consequently it words reflect their usage and consciousness of a specific period of time.
Christianity retained Judaic words but assumed different meanings, in line with the new belief. Thus the words such as "the Spirit of God," the "Son of God," "Messiah," the "World to Come," the "End Times," the Satan, etc. attained different, even radically unrelated meanings in Christianity from what they used to, and still mean in Judaism.
“. . . but given the background of the KJV I am not the least bit surprised it would be off on that account too.”
* * * * *
Nobody in this or the past 15 generations can at all pretend to the linguistic and translation skills of the KJB translators. “Cousin” is correct.
Being fully human, it only makes sense that He would pray to the triune God and not only to the Father.
Do you, Reformed, ever pray to the Holy Spirit? Or to Jesus alone? or to the Holy Trinity? I have a feeling, the Protestants pray to the Father but add “through our Lord Jesus Christ,” treating Him only as a Mediator, a Conduit, and not as someone equal to the Father or the Spirit. If so, then your prayers betray a grave Trinitarian flaw.”
The only recorded prayers of Jesus are to the Father and we are told to pray to Him. Jesus tells us in John 14 and 16 to petition the Father in Jesus’ name.
Jhn 16:23, “And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give [it] you.”
This does not diminish Jesus’ status as God; He is one with the Father as He prayed in John 17.
***You have a mistaken idea of scripture if you think that because ancient Hebrew used a term that includes both what we call “birds” and what we call “bats” the scripture is somehow out of line with truth as revealed by science or that scripture can’t be scripture if the taxonomic categories used in the language then aren’t coterminous with the taxonomic categories used now as though the Holy Spirit would certainly NOT have used a term then that comprises what we use it for now as well as something that we don’t describe by it now (of course, there’s the possibility that citation of the bat in this particular instance was an addition at the end of a list of unclean birds of another unclean flying animal that wasn’t seen as being a bird, merely another unclean flying animal). ***
Scripture, in order to be understood, needs to be reasonably accurate. If for instance, Jesus and the disciples were described as ascending the mountain in a boat or going out to fish in a cart, then one would look askance at the rest of the verse surrounding it.
The individual reader is not immune to getting it wrong. Making mistakes is one method of learning. However, that is a separate issue from whether the Apostolic Church is "wrong". I deduce that it is on many issues since in order for the Church to be right, God's revelation must by definition be flawed. I cannot accept that the Church is right where God is wrong. It also makes no sense to me that God's revelation would only be applicable for a generation or so in its own words, and then needed men to repair the language from thereafter. I give God enough credit to create a timeless revelation.
***Of course it does! I am a Christain. I believe Jesus is the Incarnated eternal Word and Wisdom of God (Logos), the only-begotten of the Father, both divine and human, and “sitting” on the right side of the Father, who together with the Father and the Holy Spirit is worshiped and glorified, and who will return to judge the living and the dead. ***
I believe this, too. Am I now a Christian, or am I still a heretic? :>) (I know the answer:>)
On what basis do you assert that the Holy Spirit is lying? Is it because "everyone knows" that bats are really mammals? Well, as I also wrote to you in another post the word "mammal" comes from Swedish botanist Carl Linnaeus (1707-1778). Before him there were no "mammals", the same animals were called by different names. So, it appears you are putting the Holy Spirit Himself up against the "authority" of some guy from the 18th century. Does that really sound correct to you? :)
You appear to assert that Holy Spirit is wrong because it is a scientific fact that bats are "mammals". Well, what if Linnaeus had decided to classify differently, including what he would have called "flaxenbrids". Flaxenbrids are warm-blooded animals that have hair, give live birth, eat insects and weigh less than 20 pounds. In that case you would have to say that Holy Spirit is wrong because it is a scientific fact that bats are flaxenbrids. Of course, your scientific fact has now radically changed. Is that how scientific facts work in the way you see the world?
How do you know that? What is your basis? It is because you define the word "bird" according to MODERN science, right? It has nothing to do with intrinsic truth, it is simply a matter of classification.
Truth doesn't change with changing classifications.
That's right, so why are you arguing AGAINST that idea? :) You are imputing intrinsic truth solely to modern classification systems. That is wrong. What are you going to do if 20 years from now scientists come up with an even better system that no longer considers bats as mammals? Suddenly, your scientific "facts" will evaporate overnight.
I guess ignorance is bliss. The word used in Greek is not cousin, but kin. BTW, the authors of KJV admitted to hundreds of errors. But if you stick you head in the sand you may actually believe that the sun doesn't shine!
Was that Christ in His humanity, as a man, speaking to other men, or as God?
When He was baptized, was it in His humanity or in His divinity? When He died, was it His humanity or His divinity that suffered and died?
Jesus would have never made Himself equal to the Father in His humanity. We can pretty much infer if it is the human or the divine Jesus speaking based on the context.
But you have confirmed my suspicions about the flawed Trinitarian views of the Reformed (I am not the least bit surprised!).
Not only do they not pray to Christ alone, but they never pray to the Holy Spirit alone either, yet they claim (I have been led to believe) that they consider all Three to be one and the same God. But your answer does not confirm that.
My take is that the Reformed believe in tiered divinity of the Holy Trinity, where the Son is subordianed to the Father (a "Conduit"), and the Holy Spirit is subordianed even more, having been sent when Jesus' job was done, and is the one indwelling inside of us and punching all the buttons, while the Father oversees everything.
My goodness, if this is true, then the reformed heresy is the best kept secret in the world because most people, including myself, have been led to believe that the Reformed are actually Christians.
“But you have confirmed my suspicions about the flawed Trinitarian views of the Reformed (I am not the least bit surprised!).”
I must admit I have not followed this post closely but I don’t understand your statement. The voluntary economic subordination of Jesus in the Godhead did nothing to devalue His deity, nor did the sending forth of the Holy Spirit to accomplish the purposes of the Godhead diminish His deity.
Phil. 2: 5-8, “Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.”
When Jesus says “no one comes to the Father but by me” or “O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee,” He is speaking as the “God-man” for no one but God knows God and no one but God can give access to God. Jesus says He is the way, the truth, the life; only God can say that. And to prove it, He was raised from the dead. All others who claimed that are still dead.
When Jesus says "no one comes to the Father but by me" or "O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee," He is speaking as the "God-man" for no one but God knows God and no one but God can give access to God. Jesus says He is the way, the truth, the life; only God can say that. And to prove it, He was raised from the dead. All others who claimed that are still dead.
Amen, b-d! Great Scripture and great exposition of that Scripture.
Short reply... just because YOU think it is wrong doesn’t make it so.
The voluntary economic subordination to the Godhead of Jesus through Incarnation, for the express purpose of our salvation, is no longer current. His mission has been accomplished (unlike some other!). While He was on earth, it was proper to pray to the Father because of that. But where does that leave the Giver of Life? If we are going to distinguish our prayers according to the Godhead's economy of our salvation, we are creating a Tiered Trinity and therefore an unholy one. God is one despite His economic subdivision. As the Creed says all three together are worshiped and glorified.
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