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To: blue-duncan; Kolokotronis; irishtenor; Forest Keeper; Mad Dawg; HarleyD; stfassisi; ...
Kosta: Do you, Reformed, ever pray to the Holy Spirit? Or to Jesus alone? or to the Holy Trinity? I have a feeling, the Protestants pray to the Father but add “through our Lord Jesus Christ,” treating Him only as a Mediator, a Conduit, and not as someone equal to the Father or the Spirit. If so, then your prayers betray a grave Trinitarian flaw.”

BD: The only recorded prayers of Jesus are to the Father and we are told to pray to Him. Jesus tells us in John 14 and 16 to petition the Father in Jesus’ name.

Jhn 16:23, “And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give [it] you.”

This does not diminish Jesus’ status as God; He is one with the Father as He prayed in John 17.

Was that Christ in His humanity, as a man, speaking to other men, or as God?

When He was baptized, was it in His humanity or in His divinity? When He died, was it His humanity or His divinity that suffered and died?

Jesus would have never made Himself equal to the Father in His humanity. We can pretty much infer if it is the human or the divine Jesus speaking based on the context.

But you have confirmed my suspicions about the flawed Trinitarian views of the Reformed (I am not the least bit surprised!).

Not only do they not pray to Christ alone, but they never pray to the Holy Spirit alone either, yet they claim (I have been led to believe) that they consider all Three to be one and the same God. But your answer does not confirm that.

My take is that the Reformed believe in tiered divinity of the Holy Trinity, where the Son is subordianed to the Father (a "Conduit"), and the Holy Spirit is subordianed even more, having been sent when Jesus' job was done, and is the one indwelling inside of us and punching all the buttons, while the Father oversees everything.

My goodness, if this is true, then the reformed heresy is the best kept secret in the world because most people, including myself, have been led to believe that the Reformed are actually Christians.

5,596 posted on 05/16/2008 12:52:44 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: kosta50; Kolokotronis; irishtenor; Forest Keeper; Mad Dawg; HarleyD; stfassisi; Dr. Eckleburg

“But you have confirmed my suspicions about the flawed Trinitarian views of the Reformed (I am not the least bit surprised!).”

I must admit I have not followed this post closely but I don’t understand your statement. The voluntary economic subordination of Jesus in the Godhead did nothing to devalue His deity, nor did the sending forth of the Holy Spirit to accomplish the purposes of the Godhead diminish His deity.

Phil. 2: 5-8, “Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.”

When Jesus says “no one comes to the Father but by me” or “O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee,” He is speaking as the “God-man” for no one but God knows God and no one but God can give access to God. Jesus says He is the way, the truth, the life; only God can say that. And to prove it, He was raised from the dead. All others who claimed that are still dead.


5,597 posted on 05/16/2008 1:30:16 PM PDT by blue-duncan
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To: kosta50

Short reply... just because YOU think it is wrong doesn’t make it so.


5,599 posted on 05/16/2008 2:31:44 PM PDT by irishtenor (Check out my blog at http://boompa53.blogspot.com/)
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