Posted on 01/27/2008 7:56:14 PM PST by Manfred the Wonder Dawg
January 25, 2008
ESV Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
In recent days I have spent time in Lima and Sullana Peru and Mexico City and I have discovered that people by nature are the same. Man has a heart that is inclined to selfishness and idolatry. Sin abounds in the remotest parts of the land because the heart is desperately wicked. Thousands bow before statues of Mary and pray to her hoping for answers. I have seen these people stare hopelessly at Mary icons, Jesus icons, and a host of dead saints who will do nothing for them. I have talked with people who pray to the pope and say that they love him. I talked with one lady who said that she knew that Jesus was the Savior, but she loved the pope. Thousands bow before Santa Muerte (holy death angel) in hopes that she will do whatever they ask her. I have seen people bring money, burning cigarettes, beer, whiskey, chocolate, plants, and flowers to Santa Muerte in hopes of her answers. I have seen these people bowing on their knees on the concrete in the middle of public places to worship their idol. Millions of people come into the Basilica in Mexico City and pay their money, confess their sins, and stare hopelessly at relics in hope that their sins will be pardoned. In America countless thousands are chained to baseball games, football games, material possessions, and whatever else their heart of idols can produce to worship.
My heart has broken in these last weeks because the God of heaven is not honored as he ought to be honored. People worship the things that are created rather than worshiping the Creator. God has been gracious to all mankind and yet mankind has hardened their hearts against a loving God. God brings the rain on the just and unjust. God brings the beautiful sunrises and sunsets upon the just and unjust. God gives good gifts unto all and above all things he has given his Son that those who would believe in him would be saved. However, man has taken the good things of God and perverted them unto idols and turned their attention away from God. I get a feel for Jesus as he overlooked Jerusalem or Paul as he beseeched for God to save Israel. When you accept the reality of the truth of the glory of God is breaks your heart that people would turn away from the great and awesome God of heaven to serve lesser things. Moses was outraged by the golden calf, the prophets passionately preached against idolatry, Jesus was angered that the temple was changed in an idolatrous business, and Paul preached to the idolaters of Mars Hill by telling them of the unknown God.
I arrived back at home wondering how I should respond to all the idolatry that I have beheld in these last three weeks. I wondered how our church here in the states should respond to all of the idolatry in the world. What are the options? First, I suppose we could sit around and hope that people chose to get their life together and stop being idolaters. However, I do not know how that could ever happen apart from them hearing the truth. Second, I suppose we could spend a lifetime studying cultural issues and customs in hope that we could somehow learn to relate to the people of other countries. However, the bible is quite clear that all men are the same. Men are dead in sin, shaped in iniquity, and by nature are the enemies of God. Thirdly, we could pay other people or other agencies to go and do a work for us while we remain comfortably in the states. However, there is no way to insure that there will be doctrinal accuracy or integrity. If we only pay other people to take the gospel we will miss out on all of the benefits of being obedient to the mission of God. Lastly, we could seek where God would have us to do a lasting work and then invest our lives there for the glory of God. The gospel has the power to raise the dead in any culture and we must be willing to take the gospel wherever God would have us take it. It is for sure that our church cannot go to every country and reach every people group, so we must determine where God would have us work and seek to be obedient wherever that is.
It seems that some doors are opening in the Spanish speaking countries below us and perhaps God is beginning to reveal where we are to work. There are some options for work to be partnered with in Peru and there could be a couple of options in Mexico. The need is greater than I can express upon this paper for a biblical gospel to be proclaimed in Peru and Mexico. Oh, that God would glorify his great name in Peru and Mexico by using a small little church in a town that does not exist to proclaim his great gospel amongst a people who desperately need the truth.
I give thanks to the LORD for allowing me the privilege of going to these countries and broadening my horizons. The things that I have seen will be forever engraved upon my heart. I will long remember the pastors that I spent time with in Peru and I will never forget Adolfo who translated for me in Mexico. I will relish the time that I spent with Paul Washer and the others. When I think of church I will forever remember being on top of that mountain in Sullana at that church which had no electricity and no roof. I am convinced that heaven was looking down on that little church on top of that mountain and very few people on earth even know that it exist. Oh, God I pray that the things of this world will continue to grow dim and that God’s people will be caught up in his glorious presence.
Because of the truth: Pastor: J. Randall Easter II Timothy 2:19 "Our God is in heaven and does whatever He pleases."(Ps. 115:3) "He predestined us according to the good pleasure of His will."(Eph. 1:5) Those who have been saved have been saved for His glory and they are being made holy for this is the will of God. Are you being made holy? Spurgeon says, "If your religion does not make you holy it will damn you to hell."
Thanks much for the thread link, it is right on point. The article was very interesting, as were the comments. The general tone I took from them is that the Orthodox are not particularly interested in unifying. Not to say there is any malice or anything, just no interest. It appears they do consider it "loss" when Orthodox convert to Catholicism. It's interesting to compare, since if someone from my Bible-believing SBC church moved to another Bible-believing church, such as a Reformed Presbyterian church, there would be no "loss".
AMEN! The Bible gives us everything we NEED to know, not everything there IS to know.
There are many things stated as being true statements about God, about man, about the world that aren't necessarily able to be fitted into a system.
That is true, however I would say that overall the Bible does reveal "a" system. As you say it doesn't explain everything, but my view is that it does explain a lot of things. Our God is a rational God, and many teachings in the Bible do seem to go together quite nicely. I wasn't sure if you were arguing against "any" system or not. (Probably not.)
Assuming you'd agree that faith comes first, as a gift of God, are you saying that until you get the "sufficient knowledge" of God from the Bible you have no idea what you believe in? In other words, it's not through the faith that you come to know God, but through the Bile?
If that is the case, then we must assume that Abraham did not know God because he didn't have a Bible to read. And neither did Noah nor Moses.
In other words, until you read the Bible, so that you may gain "sufficient knowledge" of God, your faith is blind!
You treat factual truth as some conventional fad. Whales are not fish. They may "look" like fish, but they are not fish any more than chimps are humans. My point is that whales were never fish, and chimps were never humans (nor humans chimps)! Likewise, bats were never birds; whether people knew it or not. That's the truth and truth doesn't change with ignorance or with knowledge.
If everything in the Bible is the true, inerrant word of God, then God wants us to believe that bats are birds!
Otherwise, the authors made mistakes and not everything in the Bible is the inerrant word of God. Now, which is more likely?
But if someone's entire faith rests on the inerrancy of the Bible, even when obviously wrong, then the believer will hang on to it like a drowning victim will hold on to a straw believing it's a huge log that will save him.
***Let me get this straight: what exactly did you believe when you started reading the Bible?
What if you started reading the Book of Mormon instead of the Bible? Would you have ended up joining a Mormon assembly? If not, why not?
The only way you could tell if something was genuine or not is for you to know what is scripture and what is not. Where would that knowledge come from, and how did reading the Bible add to such a powerful knowledge? ***
What does the Bible have to do with Reformed Salvation? If the Holy Spirit drops on one like a leopard from the trees and engulfs one’s soul, giving all required knowledge, what is the Bible for? Does it merely reinforce the indwelling knowledge? If so, then the Reformed Holy Spirit is obviously too weak to indwell the knowledge, yes?
That doesn’t sound quite as cut and dried as many Reformed would have us believe.
“It appears they do consider it “loss” when Orthodox convert to Catholicism. It’s interesting to compare, since if someone from my Bible-believing SBC church moved to another Bible-believing church, such as a Reformed Presbyterian church, there would be no “loss”.”
You have completely missed the point of the discussion on the Assyrian thread. By the way, the Assyrians are not Orthodox, they are Oriental Orthodox and arguably Nestorians to this day, as kosta pointed out.
The Orthodox would have no reason to feel a "loss" in this case because the Assyrian Church is not Orthodox! It would really help to at least do a cursory research before shooting from the hip, FK and HD.
But, as I replied to HD earlier, I would rather see the Assyrians go to the Church of the West then to remain in the Church that is Christologically flawed (Nestorian). I am actually, quite happy for those who returned to the Church! :)
It's interesting to compare, since if someone from my Bible-believing SBC church moved to another Bible-believing church, such as a Reformed Presbyterian church, there would be no "loss".
They are not leaving the Church (they are not in it to begin with!); they are changing assemblies. In our case, if someone leaves the Church, it's a big deal; more like a funeral.
Now I am sure if you heard that HD decided to become Orthodox and that he finally realized how flawed Reformed theology is, I am sure you'd feel a little "pang" if not a major chest pain. :)
“...as I replied to HD earlier, I would rather see the Assyrians go to the Church of the West then to remain in the Church that is Christologically flawed (Nestorian). I am actually, quite happy for those who returned to the Church! :)
The issue on the other thread had to do with ecclesiology, not theology, namely Rome accepting a bishop under discipline from his own Synod. That sort of interference in the workings of a synod of bishops within the Apostolic Succession is among the concerns which Orthodox people have about reunion with Rome.
Theologically speaking, to the extent that the Assyrians are still and in fact Nestorians, it goes without saying that those faithful are better off with Rome and a more correct Christology than remaining Nestorian heretics. Fleeing heresy, however, was not what motivated these people.
It gives them something to do (preach to the reprobate as if that will save them!) until they get the limo ride to heaven. But those who don't read the Bible and have no clue what is what in it, they get to go to heaven too...
It's like all other activities in the Reformed waiting room. Whether it's fornication (as Luther says), or whether it's bible reading, or whether it's praying or just plain being nasty, it makes no difference: they are all going to heaven, just because!
But, don't forget, it's not for their benefit; it's for God's glory. Somehow, their salvation will bring glory to God! (I am shaking my head)
I agree, but Rome did not actively interfere. The Bishop left on his own.
Theologically speaking, to the extent that the Assyrians are still and in fact Nestorians, it goes without saying that those faithful are better off with Rome and a more correct Christology than remaining Nestorian heretics. Fleeing heresy, however, was not what motivated these people
I really don't know what motivated these people. From his letter, the Bishop seems to outline the Petrine supremacy as interpreted by the Latins. Whether he really believes it or whether that was his 'way out' is not mine to determine.
“Whether he really believes it or whether that was his ‘way out’ is not mine to determine.”
He has written the simpleton’s version of Met. John’s theory of Petrine Primacy and even at that he got it wrong. Whether he believes it or not is neither here nor there. This character was under discipline for a number of acts of disobedience going back some time. Rome rightfully accepted the laity and likely the clergy. They should have sent the bishop packing back to his synod for forgiveness. They didn’t and that’s cause for concern...even in papophile Constantinople.
I showed you scriptures that were self-explanatory. I showed you that He was crucified specifically for CLAIMING He was God. That's all I can do. :)
The term "son[s] of God" is also a title and does not mean someone divine. Luke uses it (3:38) for Adam, angels and those who are born again (20:36), as well as for Jesus. It is also a title used in the same manner as the word elect or chosen in the Old Testament. Thus, the OT refers to the Jews in general as sons of God, and the NT uses it for Christians (those who are tested/chastised) by God as in Heb 12:5-8.
So for you "Son of God" has no particularly important meaning as far as the Bible is concerned? I sure hope your priest wouldn't go for that. :) What is your theory as to why Christ would hide His identity from the people, as you claim? Jesus certainly spoke of His identity, so wouldn't that be a lie of omission?
So, what does moshiah or messiah mean in the context in which the Sanhedrin asked Jesus of he was the anointed son of God?
So according to you, when Jesus said "YES", He was lying??? Or, did Jesus perhaps misunderstand the question? :)
***What does the Bible have to do with Reformed Salvation?
It gives them something to do (preach to the reprobate as if that will save them!) until they get the limo ride to heaven. But those who don’t read the Bible and have no clue what is what in it, they get to go to heaven too...
It’s like all other activities in the Reformed waiting room. Whether it’s fornication (as Luther says), or whether it’s bible reading, or whether it’s praying or just plain being nasty, it makes no difference: they are all going to heaven, just because!
But, don’t forget, it’s not for their benefit; it’s for God’s glory. Somehow, their salvation will bring glory to God! (I am shaking my head)***
Exactly. If they are going to heaven no matter what, it matters not what they do or don’t do; nor does it matter why.
If (God forbid), Forest Keeper (e.g.) was of the selected elected elite and decided that he would spend the rest of his life murdering left handed Carmelite nuns simply because it occurred to him to do it, then he would go to the Reformed heaven regardless of his actions.
Preaching the Gospel to the unelected still appears to me to be taunting them with blessings that they can never attain; preaching the Gospel to the elected is a waste since they are saved to the Reformed heaven no matter what anyone does or does not do.
Going to heaven just because and I am going and you are not so nah nanny boo boo to you seems more like third grade girls taunting each other than serious theological foundations.
I’m still not sure how God gets glorified with creating and then predestining human barbeques. Is it the thrill of the spectacle that so attracts the Reformed God?
In that case you must believe that the Gospels are lying when they report that Jesus prayed to the Father. Since these same Gospels also report that Jesus taught them HOW to pray to the Father, you must also throw out the Lord's Prayer.
FK: "If your test is that a simple sentence should be read literally, then what do you make of these?: "
Matt 16:16 : Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
Kosta: "Peter answered: "You are the anointed one (moshiach), the human beloved of God, who is here to restore the Kingdom of Israel."
So when Jesus immediately answered with this ...:
Matt 16:17 : Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.
... you are saying that Jesus was lying, or that the Father lied in His revelation. OK.
Therefore, we (Orthodox/Catholics) read the word 'brothers" as cousins.
Then why doesn't the angel of the Lord say to Mary: "Luke 1:36 : 36 And, behold, thy [SISTER] Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren." KJV
That's why just "cold" reading of the Bible does not lead to proper understanding and that's why Christ established His Church to safeguard the interpretation held by the Apostles.
But you claim that your Church has interpreted the scriptures the same for 1,700 years. You say your liturgies are all the same as they were then, DESPITE all the differences in language that you're talking about in all that time. That doesn't match. Plus, you seem to be able to read translations of the earliest Fathers and know what's going on. Why is it that the words of the Bible mean the opposite of (or something completely different from) what they say in many cases, but the early Fathers can be read straight out?
Reformed theology is about de-emphasizing sin and saying God created me this way and planned it all ,sin and everything for His glory.
What troubles me the most is the lack of humility in all of this. It's as if sin does not matter since Christ has already suffered for them.
No wonder their crosses are empty of Christ's body.
Catholic Theology emphasizes sin through confession and penance,our Crosses have the suffering Christ on them to remind us of the pain He endured for our sin,even the Immaculate Conception of the sinless Blessed Mother emphasizes the sin in our lives.
***Reformed theology is about de-emphasizing sin and saying God created me this way and planned it all ,sin and everything for His glory.
What troubles me the most is the lack of humility in all of this. It’s as if sin does not matter since Christ has already suffered for them.
No wonder their crosses are empty of Christ’s body.***
There is no personal responsibility. It is the pinnacle of theology for those who do not wish to be held responsible for anything. Nothing that they do matters, therefore, there is no matter for anything that they do.
***One group of people may have a word to describe a category (let it be called A) that contains representatives of things that another group of people may choose to describe using more than that one word based on characteristics that, to them, are sufficiently important to warrant commemorating that distinction by coining a new terms (say A1 and A2).***
Yet bats are not birds and whales are not fish. This is not a matter of what people would describe. This is a discussion of Scripture.
Well, a bishop can change his views too. I agree that Rome should have refused him, given that he was in hot water already and for no other reason than the fact that such a bishop may find himself in hot water again in the Catholic Church and decide to run to the Orthodox.
Or was it a bad judgment on the part of the Holy See, or perhaps willingness to accept anyone, as long as he accepts papal supremacy as taught by Rome?
If that's the case, then it's nothing new under the sun. That's one red flag that never goes down.
Speaking of papophile Constantinople, there is a number of Serbian bishops who side with the EP and have been quietly subverting the Church.
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