FK: I see. Well, then I'll agree with you that we should throw out the Consensus Patrum.
Consensus patrum refers to what is needed for the Church to teach as catholic faith. It's an internal ecclesiastical mechanism, a set standard and a system of checks-and-balances. It is not peddled outside the Church as universal truth to the non-believers.
That is, a system totally without proof, which is what you tell me you need. And I don't understand your last sentence. Is the internal truth of your faith not necessarily applicable to other people? When lost people inquire about Orthodoxy, do you tell them that your beliefs are not necessarily always true?
That being said, the example showing Christ in the OT are relatively scarce given the volume of books involved and definitely not a black-and-white, consensus-forming, clearly and unambiguously agreed-upon truth.
Does this mean that you would believe if there were more pages talking about Christ, "unambiguously", by your personal judgment, in the OT?
The Muslims, for instance, find Mohammad in Isaiah! Does that mean it is true? If you are a Muslim, it is!
I continue to find it strange that your side so often brings in Islam to discredit the Bible, AS IF, Islam has anything to do with Christianity. The point you all appear to be making is that SINCE there are some who get it SO 180 degrees wrong that MUST somehow be a reflection on the Bible itself. By your own standards then, there are billions who will have nothing to do with Orthodoxy or the patristic writings. THEREFORE they are wrong! Or, I and others have read some patristic writings and have seen some Reformed ideas. THEREFORE, those writings are wrong.
What proof do [Orthodox laity] offer?
For what? Their faith? By definition, people with faith need no proof and can't understand why the rest of the world doesn't believe as they do!
I am simply applying your own standards. You DEMAND proof, and you imply that my beliefs are not credible if I cannot give you proof to your satisfaction. What I'm driving at is that by your own standards there is absolutely no reason whatsoever that I should believe that Orthodoxy is the true faith since you can give me no proof. Your own tagline says Orthodoxy is "pure Christianity". Prove it. :)
So, based on this, we can very easily see why Jesus would say that even "Moses wrote about me." It's just that it wasn't necessarily about the Christian Christ so to say.
So again, you're saying that Jesus was lying. What other answer is there?
Exactly! How many times have we read that around here?
Just because some people are following the voice of their schauzer in their head does not mean that the Holy Spirit is not leading all whom God has called to come to Him in faith and revealing Himself on every page of holy Scripture.