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To: Forest Keeper; Kolokotronis; irishtenor; blue-duncan; Mad Dawg; HarleyD; stfassisi; ...
Kosta: Prayers are worship, FK. I was not aware that God worships Himself.

FK: In that case you must believe that the Gospels are lying when they report that Jesus prayed to the Father

The Bible does say that he prayed to the Father, but how much of that is a fact? For instance, on the night of His betrayal, He is quoted as asking the Father if He could take away the bitter cup...but it also says that all the Apostles were asleep and that Jesus was by Himself. So, how do they know what He did? Who witnessed it?

The Apostles by and large saw Him as the Jewish messiah and as such, being human, He would pray to the Father along with other pious Jews. Being fully human, it only makes sense that He would pray to the triune God and not only to the Father.

Do you, Reformed, ever pray to the Holy Spirit? Or to Jesus alone? or to the Holy Trinity? I have a feeling, the Protestants pray to the Father but add "through our Lord Jesus Christ," treating Him only as a Mediator, a Conduit, and not as someone equal to the Father or the Spirit. If so, then your prayers betray a grave Trinitarian flaw.

5,585 posted on 05/16/2008 6:18:07 AM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: kosta50; Kolokotronis; irishtenor; Forest Keeper; Mad Dawg; HarleyD; stfassisi; Dr. Eckleburg

Being fully human, it only makes sense that He would pray to the triune God and not only to the Father.

Do you, Reformed, ever pray to the Holy Spirit? Or to Jesus alone? or to the Holy Trinity? I have a feeling, the Protestants pray to the Father but add “through our Lord Jesus Christ,” treating Him only as a Mediator, a Conduit, and not as someone equal to the Father or the Spirit. If so, then your prayers betray a grave Trinitarian flaw.”

The only recorded prayers of Jesus are to the Father and we are told to pray to Him. Jesus tells us in John 14 and 16 to petition the Father in Jesus’ name.

Jhn 16:23, “And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give [it] you.”

This does not diminish Jesus’ status as God; He is one with the Father as He prayed in John 17.


5,589 posted on 05/16/2008 6:36:43 AM PDT by blue-duncan
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To: kosta50; Kolokotronis; irishtenor; blue-duncan; Mad Dawg; HarleyD; stfassisi; Dr. Eckleburg
The Bible does say that he prayed to the Father, but how much of that is a fact? For instance, on the night of His betrayal, He is quoted as asking the Father if He could take away the bitter cup...but it also says that all the Apostles were asleep and that Jesus was by Himself. So, how do they know what He did? Who witnessed it?

God witnessed it and caused the authors of the Bible to write down what actually happened. But you are right that if the Bible was simply written by men doing the best they could, then many many things would have to be thrown out. Since I don't throw anything out in the Bible, I can't believe it happened that way. "God-breathed" actually means something important.

Being fully human, it only makes sense that He would pray to the triune God and not only to the Father.

Just as BD said, we pray as the Bible tells us to pray in form. Are we wrong for following the scriptures? Do you all pray to individual members of the Trinity separately? As in, "Jesus, this is just for you but not for the Spirit"? If so, why? When I pray "Dear Heavenly Father" I am really addressing the full Trinity, the one true God. How is this explained? They are all ONE.

5,653 posted on 05/18/2008 8:11:23 PM PDT by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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