Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

To: Forest Keeper; MarkBsnr
POTS teaches that God will prevent His children from committing sin SUCH THAT it would cause the loss of salvation

Not according to 1 Peter, and other biblical verses.

It IS theoretically possible to lose salvation, but God promises it won't happen

God promises those who come to Him on their own, who respond to His call. He doesn't hijack and He doesn't force anyone to love Him.

Either God would prevent it by changing my mind, or He would take me out before I took anyone else out, or I was never of the elect in the first place

Not according to Luther.

No one can know who the elect and the unelect are, save God. Therefore, we treat everyone as presumptively elect and preach to everyone

Who's "we?" The "elect?" I though you just said no one know who the elect are.

That's what God tells us to do in the Great Commission

Actually, that is not necessarily what He says. The Greek word used in the Great Commission is ethne, which also means "tribes,", the tribes of Israel (the lost sheep) in scattering (from the days of the Babylonian captivity), in Africa and Asia Minor. Remember that Jesus specifically says He was sent for the lost sheep of Israel and not the Gentiles.

OTOH, the elect still have to believe and be saved within time. Therefore, preaching to them, whoever they are, is always worthwhile. Actions do matter

If they are not saved then they are not elect. If they are "saved" they are "saved" and no amount of preaching or teaching or praying will change anything according to the Reformed theology.

Mark: I’m still not sure how God gets glorified with creating and then predestining human barbeques.

FK: God is glorified because they are used to fulfill His purpose

His purpose is to eternally torture those who had been condemned before they existed? What "God" is that? Baal?

Perhaps some believe that the crucifixion was just a wild coincidence that happened to work out so that we could be saved

It was a rescue, God's intervention. It was ushering the New Covenant, redemption of humanity. Do you suppose God planned the Flood too? Or does God just delight in premeditated drowning and killing in general?

A random chance occurrence. I don't understand that thinking because it involves an unloving and extremely weak God, but in any event we say that God planned it all out well in advance, so He was glorified when it all came to fruition

God gave man choices. It wasn't random. But if God planned everything than He is the author of everything, good and evil, and his name is probably Baal.

5,644 posted on 05/17/2008 11:24:22 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5641 | View Replies ]


To: kosta50; MarkBsnr
FK: "Either God would prevent it by changing my mind, or He would take me out before I took anyone else out, or I was never of the elect in the first place."

Not according to Luther.

Many people do not understand Luther's style of writing. It was pretty simple actually, but nevertheless it is too much for some to handle. Fortunately, those of us who revere Luther understand the points he was making. I don't know if it makes any difference to you, but none of us Reformers have ever condoned the views that you have ascribed to him. They are your own views that neither Luther nor Reformers follow(ed).

FK: "No one can know who the elect and the unelect are, save God. Therefore, we treat everyone as presumptively elect and preach to everyone."

Who's "we?" The "elect?" I though you just said no one know who the elect are.

No, "we" are Bible-believing Christians who believe that the Great Commission was directed to us also. It is certain that not all who profess to being Bible-believing Christians are of the elect. And, none of us knows who the whole group of the elect are, but we CAN know about our individual selves. That is the assurance given in God's word. (Some choose not to be honest with themselves about their relationships with God.)

Remember that Jesus specifically says He was sent for the lost sheep of Israel and not the Gentiles.

But Paul tells us who "Israel" is, which includes Gentiles, as it was taught to him directly by Christ.

If they are not saved then they are not elect. If they are "saved" they are "saved" and no amount of preaching or teaching or praying will change anything according to the Reformed theology.

The elect are predestined to be saved (remember the different uses of the word "saved" within time?) which IS AS GOOD AS BEING saved. However, certain things must still happen within time, although there is no doubt that they will happen given the predestination. One of those things is (normally) belief, and that comes through hearing the word. That takes some type of communication which commonly includes preaching of some kind. Normally, the predestined elect WILL be preached to, and WILL HEAR the word, and then believe. Whether you want to categorize these things as pro forma is up to you, but they do matter.

His purpose is to eternally torture those who had been condemned before they existed? What "God" is that? Baal?

Whenever I hear complaining like this I am forced to ask if you would prefer a God who treated us as we deserved to be treated?

FK: "Perhaps some believe that the crucifixion was just a wild coincidence that happened to work out so that we could be saved."

It was a rescue, God's intervention. It was ushering the New Covenant, redemption of humanity.

Given the Apostolic view of free will and non interference, what exactly do you say was God's intervention? That Jesus showed up and whatever happened, happened? That's not much of an intervention.

Do you suppose God planned the Flood too? Or does God just delight in premeditated drowning and killing in general?

Of course God planned the Flood, He said so in no uncertain terms and planned for its aftermath. He fully intended to and did wipe out everything except for what He put on the ark. Mark, as a Catholic, how would you and/or the Latin Church answer this?

But if God planned everything than He is the author of everything, good and evil, and his name is probably Baal.

Nah, but one of my favorite Bible stories was when Elijah had fun toying with that god. :) That was hilarious.

5,674 posted on 05/19/2008 11:59:54 PM PDT by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5644 | View Replies ]

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article


FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson