Not according to Luther.
Many people do not understand Luther's style of writing. It was pretty simple actually, but nevertheless it is too much for some to handle. Fortunately, those of us who revere Luther understand the points he was making. I don't know if it makes any difference to you, but none of us Reformers have ever condoned the views that you have ascribed to him. They are your own views that neither Luther nor Reformers follow(ed).
FK: "No one can know who the elect and the unelect are, save God. Therefore, we treat everyone as presumptively elect and preach to everyone."
Who's "we?" The "elect?" I though you just said no one know who the elect are.
No, "we" are Bible-believing Christians who believe that the Great Commission was directed to us also. It is certain that not all who profess to being Bible-believing Christians are of the elect. And, none of us knows who the whole group of the elect are, but we CAN know about our individual selves. That is the assurance given in God's word. (Some choose not to be honest with themselves about their relationships with God.)
Remember that Jesus specifically says He was sent for the lost sheep of Israel and not the Gentiles.
But Paul tells us who "Israel" is, which includes Gentiles, as it was taught to him directly by Christ.
If they are not saved then they are not elect. If they are "saved" they are "saved" and no amount of preaching or teaching or praying will change anything according to the Reformed theology.
The elect are predestined to be saved (remember the different uses of the word "saved" within time?) which IS AS GOOD AS BEING saved. However, certain things must still happen within time, although there is no doubt that they will happen given the predestination. One of those things is (normally) belief, and that comes through hearing the word. That takes some type of communication which commonly includes preaching of some kind. Normally, the predestined elect WILL be preached to, and WILL HEAR the word, and then believe. Whether you want to categorize these things as pro forma is up to you, but they do matter.
His purpose is to eternally torture those who had been condemned before they existed? What "God" is that? Baal?
Whenever I hear complaining like this I am forced to ask if you would prefer a God who treated us as we deserved to be treated?
FK: "Perhaps some believe that the crucifixion was just a wild coincidence that happened to work out so that we could be saved."
It was a rescue, God's intervention. It was ushering the New Covenant, redemption of humanity.
Given the Apostolic view of free will and non interference, what exactly do you say was God's intervention? That Jesus showed up and whatever happened, happened? That's not much of an intervention.
Do you suppose God planned the Flood too? Or does God just delight in premeditated drowning and killing in general?
Of course God planned the Flood, He said so in no uncertain terms and planned for its aftermath. He fully intended to and did wipe out everything except for what He put on the ark. Mark, as a Catholic, how would you and/or the Latin Church answer this?
But if God planned everything than He is the author of everything, good and evil, and his name is probably Baal.
Nah, but one of my favorite Bible stories was when Elijah had fun toying with that god. :) That was hilarious.
Oh, no doubt, simple it was. It is not too much for others to handle. It's just too disagreeable. Big difference. But my point was that God would not take you out before you took out someone any more than God would have taken out a Lutheran who decided to fornicate 1,000 times a day, as Luther said. You may wish it, and believed that God would not let you commit crime, but that just doesn't fit the reality on the ground.
[Who is "we?" The "elect?"] No, "we" are Bible-believing Christians who believe that the Great Commission was directed to us also
There were 11 remaining disciples, not of all whom believed, at the the Great Commission. Jesus gave it to them (presumably the believing ones) and they gave it to those whom they made their successors.
It seems to me that the "Bible-believeing Christians" believe something that's not in the Bible, namely that the Great Commission applied to every Tom, Dick and Harry who decided to preach.
And, none of us knows who the whole group of the elect are, but we CAN know about our individual selves
That is very reassuring FK. /sar/
But Paul tells us who "Israel" is, which includes Gentiles, as it was taught to him directly by Christ
No, the Bible says Paul and Barnabas went to the Gentiles because the Jews repudiated the word of God and judged themselves unworthy of eternal life, so they turned to the Gentiles. [cf Act 13:46]
Jesus never taught that Israel included Gentiles to any of His disciples. It was a dire necessity for the Church to survive that led to the idea that the Gentiles are in the "club."
Besides, the word Gentile simply means "non-bliever." In the OT, even the non-believing Jews are referred to as goyim (Gentiles). Looked at it this way, all of humanity is potentially "Israel."
The elect are predestined to be saved (remember the different uses of the word "saved" within time?) which IS AS GOOD AS BEING saved
Then, how come Paul says "Let no one in any way deceive you" [2 Thes 2:3] and "[T]he Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons." [1 Tim 4]?
How can anyone "let" himself be deceived if he is predestined to be deceived? Is this not as good as being deceived? And how would you know either way?
And who will do the deceiving according to Paul? Well, it seems to me he pulls the OT card and says—God! "For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false" [2 Thes 2:11]! Deluding influence is "different" from deception—how?
From the OT, we have "a spirit" [angel?] deceiving. Here is how it goes [my emphases]:
21 "Then a spirit came forward and stood before the LORD and said, 'I will entice him.'
22"The LORD said to him, 'How?' [sic] And he said, 'I will go out and be a deceiving spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.' Then He said, 'You are to entice him and also prevail. Go and do so.'
23"Now therefore, behold, the LORD has put a deceiving spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets; and the LORD has proclaimed disaster against you." [1 King 22:20-23]
I would be curious to hear what the Church has to say about St. Paul saying that God put deceiving spirits in the mouths of those He doesn't like, or is this one of those Pauline statements we never talk about?
Kosta: His purpose is to eternally torture those who had been condemned before they existed? What "God" is that? Baal?
Whenever I hear complaining like this I am forced to ask if you would prefer a God who treated us as we deserved to be treated?
How can you "deserve" to be treated either way if you are predestined to be pardoned or condemned before you even existed and "deserved" anything???
Given the Apostolic view of free will and non interference, what exactly do you say was God's intervention? That Jesus showed up and whatever happened, happened?
No, the Christians believe God intercedes on our behalf and rewards those whose will is in harmony with His wiill and their intentions are pure. We don't believe He forces us to commit acts by predestination and has already pronounced our sentence based on none of our doing.
God's intervention was one of extreme humility, that He became Incarnate and suffered and died so that He can offer Himself as ransom for our freedom (the NT is clear about that). In doing so, He freed mankind to come to God, if they so choose. He paid for us with Himself, so that we can be free. If we show ingratitude, that's our loss, and not because He wants to see us perish.
That's not much of an intervention
Well, that's between you and Him.
Of course God planned the Flood, He said so in no uncertain terms and planned for its aftermath
Of course He did, but it doesn't match the Reformed God formula because the Book says He was "sorry" for having made man. Did He not make man and predestined him to be wicked? So, why was He "sorry?" or "surprised?"
Nah, but one of my favorite Bible stories was when Elijah had fun toying with that god. :) That was hilarious
Sure, but nothing like Jacob wresting with God all night long and "winning!" That was hilarious too. In fact, all those legends are quite hilarious.
***Of course God planned the Flood, He said so in no uncertain terms and planned for its aftermath. He fully intended to and did wipe out everything except for what He put on the ark. Mark, as a Catholic, how would you and/or the Latin Church answer this?***
Interesting. New Advent says this:
The Book of Genesis gives the following brief account of the Deluge: God sees the wickedness of men, and determines to destroy them excepting Noah and his family (vi, 1-8). He reveals his decree to Noah and instructs him how he may save himself and the seed of all animal life by means of an ark to be built according to certain dimensions (vi, 9-22). Seven days before the Flood, God commands the patriarch to enter the ark (vii, 1-5). Noah completes his entrance into the ark on the very day on which the Flood begins; the rain falls for forty days and nights; all living things outside the ark are destroyed; the waters prevail upon the earth a hundred and fifty days (vii, 6-24). The waters decrease, the earth dries up; Noah ascertains its condition by means of a raven and a dove sent out from the ark (viii, 1-14). Noah obeys the Divine command to leave the ark, builds an altar, offers sacrifice, makes a covenant with God, and begins to be a husbandman (ix, 1-27).
So what we have is that God caused the flood to happen in response to man’s wickedness. God also condemned Sodom and Gemorrah in response to their wickedness. God caused the multiplication of languages at the Tower of Babel in response to their wickedness.
***And, none of us knows who the whole group of the elect are, but we CAN know about our individual selves. ***
Can or do? How is that knowledge experienced?
*** It is certain that not all who profess to being Bible-believing Christians are of the elect. ***
This does not jive. How can you believe in God if you are not hijacked by the Reformed Holy Spirit? Does the Reformed Holy Spirit then give the grace to believe in God to some that are then condemned to hell? Am I misunderstanding or is Reformed belief a tad inconsistent?
***The elect are predestined to be saved (remember the different uses of the word “saved” within time?) which IS AS GOOD AS BEING saved.***
Whee. What does this really mean?