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The Neverending Story (The Christian Chronicles)
AP ^ | 3/24/01

Posted on 03/10/2004 9:37:27 PM PST by malakhi

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.


Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

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To: drstevej
Whoa. You believe God offers salvation to corpses? I'm with the "that's too late" crowd here.
3,961 posted on 04/13/2004 10:52:31 AM PDT by CindyDawg
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To: SoothingDave; Dr. Eckleburg
Is it a cats fault that it catches mice?

Is it my fault when I catch a cat? Don't bother raising your hand - it's a rhetorical question.

3,962 posted on 04/13/2004 10:53:01 AM PDT by Alex Murphy
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To: SoothingDave; HarleyD
Well, not really. I don't try to present a completely fogured out system. I acknowledge there is mystery involved. Involving how our free will works out to acheive God's goals.

There is no mystery here Dave, either God knows or He doesn't. If He does know than you have the same problem you accuse us Calvinists of having.

If you say He doesn't know, well, you have bigger problems and the Office for the Propagation of the Faith may be knocking on your door someday. ;^)

What I do not do is deny that we have a free will. Everyone I believe God puts in hell has made free, truly free choices that have resulted in that.

I believe God somehow allows us to be truly free. I can't explain it. But to make God the decider of everything is to make God responsible for sin and death and for the unjust damnatino of people who are only doing God's will and being the creatures God made them to be.

I don't think you will find a single Calvinist on this thread that disagrees with you. Those who end up in Hell end up there of their own Free Will. Those who end up with God in Eternity do so of their own Free Will.

The only difference between the two is God's Grace. On one undeserving group He bestowed Grace. On the other undeserving group He did not bestow Grace.

It's simply a different perspective. To make God's will the overriding principle is to rob all of us of any responsibility. If you would only admit that men have a capacity to do good or evil, than your problems would go away.

I can't admit that Dave, remember that verse about "whatsoever is not of faith is sin?" The unsaved can never do good. Well, they can never do anything that God would consider good. I'm sure they can do lots of stuff that we would consider good.

Remember the rich, young ruler? He called Jesus "Good Master." Then Jesus told him that only God is good. The young ruler had kept most of the commandments and yet he still wasn't considered good, why do you think that was?

3,963 posted on 04/13/2004 10:56:58 AM PDT by ksen (This day we fight! By all that you hold dear on this good earth I bid you stand, Men of the West!)
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To: CindyDawg
To those spiritually dead in tresspasses and sins. (Eph 2)

As opposed to the preveniently "undead" folks that Arminians suppose roam the planet until they choose to be quickened.
3,964 posted on 04/13/2004 10:57:52 AM PDT by drstevej
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To: ksen
Serious question, ok? How does all this affect salvation? (Pre-determination or free will).
3,965 posted on 04/13/2004 10:57:53 AM PDT by CindyDawg
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To: Alex Murphy
Is it my fault when I catch a cat?

This is a family website, so I'll censor my response. :-)

SD

3,966 posted on 04/13/2004 10:59:55 AM PDT by SoothingDave
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To: CindyDawg
Serious question, ok?

CD I try to take all, well most, of your questions seriously. ;^)

How does all this affect salvation? (Pre-determination or free will).

I don't think it does. Salvation is still by Grace through faith. In both systems only those that God knows will ever come to faith in Christ.

It's just on the one hand we Calvinists believe that a man had to acted on by God first in order to be able to believe in Christ.

On the other hand it is said that a man can come to faith in Christ without God having to act upon him.

But we both believe it is "whosoever will."

3,967 posted on 04/13/2004 11:04:26 AM PDT by ksen (This day we fight! By all that you hold dear on this good earth I bid you stand, Men of the West!)
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To: SoothingDave
Then I guess what you are saying (not to use "fairness") is that some are pretty much predestined to be predisposed.

And what about the poor little native on some uncharted island who never heard the word of God and dies? Did God with all His power created an imperfect system for reaching people?

Isn't God's "imperfect system" of sharing the gospel for which people are "thrown" into Hell just the same as saying God does not rescue everyone from Hell?
3,968 posted on 04/13/2004 11:08:39 AM PDT by HarleyD (For strong is he who carries out God's word. (Joel 2:11))
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To: ksen
There is no mystery here Dave, either God knows or He doesn't. If He does know than you have the same problem you accuse us Calvinists of having.

"Know" does not mean "cause." God knows who is damned. God does not cause their damnation by failing to provide them with grace.

I don't think you will find a single Calvinist on this thread that disagrees with you. Those who end up in Hell end up there of their own Free Will. Those who end up with God in Eternity do so of their own Free Will.

But you guys don't accept free will. You make God's will everything. Which means God is responsible for the damnation of those. No matter how much you protest. Making God's will the highest thing leads you to this.

I make a mystery, the unknowability of how God works my highest thing.

The only difference between the two is God's Grace. On one undeserving group He bestowed Grace. On the other undeserving group He did not bestow Grace.

Then God decided! See? Of course you don't.

God gives sufficient grace for salvation to all. So those in hell have freely chosen it. He didn't decide to deprive them of what they need. It is this conception of God that the atheists hate. And rightly so.

I can't admit that Dave, remember that verse about "whatsoever is not of faith is sin?" The unsaved can never do good.

Then they are not free.

The young ruler had kept most of the commandments and yet he still wasn't considered good, why do you think that was?

Because "most of the commandments" makes you a commandment-breaker. All are judged and found wanting. That doesn't mean that people can do isolated thigns that are objectively good.

Today seems to be the day we find out that there is no objective standard that Calvinists hold for good and evil. If the reprobate do exactly what God wants and are damned for it and if they can do not own single thing that is good in God's eyes, then what is good and what is bad?

Can a Calvinist define them? It would seem to me that doing what God wants of us is good, but that is not what you think. So what is good? What is bad?

SD

3,969 posted on 04/13/2004 11:12:01 AM PDT by SoothingDave
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To: CindyDawg
drstevej:As opposed to the preveniently "undead" folks that Arminians suppose roam the planet until they choose to be quickened.

cindy....this is where you ask him how Spurgeon thought a dead man could "open" doors to thier heart

Christ is the great master-key of all the chambers of God: there is no treasure-house of God which will not open and yield up all its wealth to the soul that lives near to Jesus. Are you saying, "O that He would dwell in my bosom"? "Would that He would make my heart His dwelling-place for ever"? Open the door, beloved, and He will come into your souls. He has long been knocking, and all with this object, that He may sup with you, and you with Him. He sups with you because you find the house or the heart, and you with Him because He brings the provision. He could not sup with you if it were not in your heart, you finding the house; nor could you sup with Him, for you have a bare cupboard, if He did not bring provision with Him. Fling wide, then, the portals of your soul.

C.H. Spurgeon

3,970 posted on 04/13/2004 11:15:11 AM PDT by Revelation 911
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To: HarleyD
Then I guess what you are saying (not to use "fairness") is that some are pretty much predestined to be predisposed.

Assuming you understand the difference, yes.

And what about the poor little native on some uncharted island who never heard the word of God and dies?

What about him? Do you begrudge God if He decides to be magnanimous and save this little native? If the native in his ignorance followed the law written on his heart?

It doesn't bother me if God saves someone else. Why do you bring it up? what is your point? Why do you think God can't judge based upon circumstances?

Do you think God judges a 7 year old the same as a 35 year old? Is an imbecile judged on the same standard as a doctor? Is your God wise?

Did God with all His power created an imperfect system for reaching people?

LOL. Whom are you judging? God doesn't need us in order to turn the heart of the bushman. I just let God be God and worry about myself. I don't automatically damn the invincibly ignorant. Do you think God does?

Isn't God's "imperfect system" of sharing the gospel for which people are "thrown" into Hell just the same as saying God does not rescue everyone from Hell?

when did I say God could only "inperfectly" share the Gospel? When did I say God had to rescue everyone from hell?

I defend only the idea that man is free to choose good or evil, so that those in hell are truly responsible for their actions.

SD

3,971 posted on 04/13/2004 11:19:58 AM PDT by SoothingDave
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To: ksen
I know but I don't lol

Ok then. This is an intersting topic and people should be able to post what they want but wouldn't it be better to agree that yall think only some are the elect but don't know who whereas some of us believe all can be the elect if they choose and we all get back to the not yet elects ? :')

3,972 posted on 04/13/2004 11:20:01 AM PDT by CindyDawg
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To: ksen; SoothingDave
The problem SD has is the same theological problem I struggled with for 30+ years. One must accept the fact of God's election or throw up their hands and say it a mystery of God.
3,973 posted on 04/13/2004 11:20:35 AM PDT by HarleyD (For strong is he who carries out God's word. (Joel 2:11))
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To: ksen
I'll check back later. Time to get back to work. Later
3,974 posted on 04/13/2004 11:21:43 AM PDT by CindyDawg
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To: SoothingDave
"Do you begrudge God if He decides to be magnanimous and save this little native?"

Oooh, that sounds like a Calvinist perspective.

"Do you think God judges a 7 year old the same as a 35 year old?"

I think I've mentioned that God judgement is perfectly just, merciful, loving and righteous. He'll handle it.

"God doesn't need us in order to turn the heart of the bushman."

I honestly don't think we're as far apart in beliefs as you may think.

3,975 posted on 04/13/2004 11:31:54 AM PDT by HarleyD (For strong is he who carries out God's word. (Joel 2:11))
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To: HarleyD; ksen; SoothingDave
One must accept the fact of God's election or throw up their hands and say it a mystery of God.

But we're perfectly happy with things being a "mystery of God". FAR better than picking some explanation out of a hat and forcing it to fit the situation.

3,976 posted on 04/13/2004 11:32:54 AM PDT by IMRight
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To: HarleyD
The problem SD has is the same theological problem I struggled with for 30+ years. One must accept the fact of God's election or throw up their hands and say it a mystery of God.

I accpet God's election. I don't accept that God damns any. And I don't accept that free will is an illusion.

I would rather confess that God chooses some for salvation and that our free will choices mysteriously work out God's predetermined plan than I would confess that God doesn't love the reprobate and that He denies them grace and selection and chooses them for eternal damnation.

When something bad happens, a child dies, do you find more comfort in knowing that God grieves and suffers with you, or with knowing that God knows what He's doing? According to my thoughts, it can be both. God can be our Friend and Father and feel the pain and loss we feel. And He can be the one who is in control and who promises that it can all make sense in the end.

I don't see the comfort in Calvinism. In the last few days I have had the idea of friendship with God denied, and the idea of God griveing over His peoples' choices and their consequences is nonsense to the Calvin "That's just what I wanted" God.

I'll take some mystery, please.

SD

3,977 posted on 04/13/2004 11:33:41 AM PDT by SoothingDave
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To: IMRight
FAR better than picking some explanation out of a hat and forcing it to fit the situation.

I guess if you consider the Bible a "hat." ;^)

3,978 posted on 04/13/2004 11:34:22 AM PDT by ksen (This day we fight! By all that you hold dear on this good earth I bid you stand, Men of the West!)
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To: HarleyD
I honestly don't think we're as far apart in beliefs as you may think.

That's very true. I don't believe in "double" predestination. I affirm that the natural man is depraved, but not "total." And I don't think grace is irresistable, hence I think everyone gets a sufficient amount, though some get an abundance.

SD

3,979 posted on 04/13/2004 11:36:14 AM PDT by SoothingDave
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To: the808bass
Calvinists often seem to enjoy emphasizing the sovereign power of God but then feign ignorance when it comes to Creation. God created us. We did not ask for creation. We did not participate in our own making. God did that.

We often speak of the sovereignty of God at creation.

And if God not only knew but indeed decided a priori that some, indeed most, of His creation would be damned to Hell, then God "caused" them to deny Him. You cannot dance around this. You can attempt to negate it or play word games with it, but in the end, you have a sovereign God who causes EVERYTHING, including the rejection of Himself

No , God takes nothing away from the unsaved , they make exactly the free will choice that they prefer.

God adds to the will of elect the desire and ability to repent and believe, by breaking the bondage of the will.

Men will always choose what they prefer, and unregenerate men will never prefer to have Jesus as their Lord.

3,980 posted on 04/13/2004 11:41:02 AM PDT by RnMomof7 (Broomstick Jockey)
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