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Take A Stand: Vote against H1B, Boycott H1B Companies
Self | November 2, 2002 | FormerLurker

Posted on 11/01/2002 8:18:12 PM PST by FormerLurker

It is a well known fact that there are scores of computer professionals who have been laid off and are out of work in this country. Those positions include software engineers, network engineers, and electrical engineers. Those who have lost their jobs in the past 24 months know what I am talking about.

We all know WHY we've been laid off. It is because indentured servants from other lands have overrun our country with the help of Congress due to the false premise of a labor shortage by IT industry lobbyists.

Here we have an opportunity to "layoff" those who were responsible for OUR layoffs.

Below is a link that provides information as to what your Senator and Congressman have voted for in relation to this problem;

Congressional Vote Map

Additionally, if you'd like to know which companies in your area hire H1B workers to replace Americans, click on the following link..

Advanced LCA Search Form


TOPICS: Activism/Chapters; Business/Economy; Foreign Affairs; Free Republic; Government; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: betrayal; blameminorities; boycott; bribes; cannotcompete; civilrights; compuware; conspiracy; corporatewelfare; corruption; crime; dcm; democrat; discrimination; dol; economy; election; enron; failure; felony; formerlurker; fraud; greed; h1b; hewlettpackard; homosexuality; ins; intel; jealousy; lca; libertarian; lies; loser; mafia; mob; nwo; organizedcrime; pandering; pantywaste; payoffs; politicians; politics; racketeering; republican; rico; slavelabor; sunmicrosystems; tycho; unemployment; vote; welfareforexecs
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To: No.6
Then, as I said in the above post, the H1Bers' code falls to pieces, so the regular staff has to fix everything, at huge expense.

That's what really get's me scratching my head. What sort of shortsighted idiot would want these people? The majority of the work I've seen produced by them is below par, unreadable, and poorly thought out. Sure, they work more hours for less, but then they only end up generating MORE garbage than if they had worked shorter days...

141 posted on 11/04/2002 10:14:01 AM PST by FormerLurker
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To: sinkspur
It's all about productivity.

Wrong. It's all about greed. And I say let the scumbags who run these companies move offshore to India. At least then they won't be taking advantage of the world-class infrastructure we have here. Let them go to Bangladesh where they can hire people for 50 cents an hour - and let them deal with the thrid-world infrastructure they have there.

If companies are going to take advantage of the tax-payer furnished infrastructure we have in the US, then they have a RESPONSIBILITY to put American citizens (who are the taxpayers) first. And if they don't like that, let them move off to the garbage dumps of Mexico City.

142 posted on 11/04/2002 10:17:32 AM PST by fogarty
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To: No.6
Too bad the Indian programmers don't understand requirements, meet bare minimum standards for programming, and leave code in their wake that is not documented, badly coded, and often requires complete rework.

The Indian programmers understand the requirements because we put American project managers in place who are scrupulous about defining every detail.

Our subsidiary is Level 5 certified which, if you know anything about software certification, is the highest level achieveable.

All code done by our subsidiaries is fully documented, and we do post-project audits at 30 days, 45 days, 60 days, and 90 days.

We've had to do no rework; in fact, our repeat business from existing customers is nearly 75%.

As I said, our company does not use H1-B programmers. All of our programmers are in India, South Africa, the Phillipines or Malaysia and program via a secure ISL link.

I'm talking about offshore outsourcing, not H1-B.

143 posted on 11/04/2002 10:18:17 AM PST by sinkspur
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To: ExpatCanuck
If you hired an H1 Visa Holder over a equally qualified American citizen, then I'd say you need to question your patriotism. If that were the case, I'd question your loyalty, as would many many other citizens.
144 posted on 11/04/2002 10:21:05 AM PST by fogarty
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To: FormerLurker
You are incorrect. H1-B's certainly do pay taxes. Having a good friend who is here on one right now, I should know. Of course, lets not bring any reality into this discussion.

He pays full taxes, including income tax, state tax and social security. He pays rent, food, gas, insurance.... He pays everything, including donations to charities, etc. None of his money was 'sent home' (you stated falsely that 100% of it is sent home), his money is being invested in American institutions. And the average H1-B salary IS NOT 80,000, but closer to 55,000 to 60,000.

145 posted on 11/04/2002 10:31:24 AM PST by freeasinbeer
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To: fogarty
If companies are going to take advantage of the tax-payer furnished infrastructure we have in the US, then they have a RESPONSIBILITY to put American citizens (who are the taxpayers) first.

These companies pay for insfrastructure through high property taxes, my friend.

If Americans are competitively priced, they will be hired. As I've been saying, most of the companies I've sold outsourcing to do not outsource mission-critical applications as of yet. There is too much risk allowing code that details competitive advantage processes outside the four walls.

If security could be guaranteed, then that obstacle would be overcome as well.

Competition ultimately makes us all better.

146 posted on 11/04/2002 10:32:57 AM PST by sinkspur
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To: freeasinbeer
He pays full taxes, including income tax, state tax and social security.

As I mentioned earlier in post #135, I should have been more specific. There are currently agreements with 19 countries where their citizens don't pay US FICA. Although India isn't currently one of those countries, lobbyists are pushing for it.

He pays rent, food, gas, insurance.... He pays everything, including donations to charities, etc. None of his money was 'sent home' (you stated falsely that 100% of it is sent home), his money is being invested in American institutions.

Although true perhaps in your friend's case, such is not true in many other cases. I personally know of a Pakistani who was here on a H1-B. He lived with several other Pakistanis in the same apartment. He didn't have any intentions of making his nest here, he was talking about what he was going to do when he went back to Pakistan. I've gone out drinking with him, and at the time had no hard feelings. In fact, I'm not really all that bitter towards the workers themselves, it is the policy and those who pushed for it and made it law that I have serious issues with.

And the average H1-B salary IS NOT 80,000, but closer to 55,000 to 60,000.

The figure I specified was in relation to what a US worker would have made. It is the loss of the US worker's income that I was refering to.

147 posted on 11/04/2002 10:56:12 AM PST by FormerLurker
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To: sinkspur
IF your company is doing as you state, you are the exception, not the rule, for either H1Bing or outsourcing.

My personal experience has been that local H1Bers code is bad, and remote workers' code has been worse.

Even so: in your spare time, do you run a shoe factory using Chinese labor? or do you not see the parallel?

148 posted on 11/04/2002 10:56:58 AM PST by No.6
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To: sinkspur
If Americans are competitively priced, they will be hired.

That is untrue. Salary is one of the last issues raised in the hiring process. It is the matter of getting an interview that is impossible today.

What is one to do, write a resume and say something like, "HIRE ME, I'LL WORK FOR PENNIES ON THE DOLLAR"? Hey, maybe I should try that, maybe I'd get at a few responses. Whether I get an interview is doubtful though. There's just so many people with Master's degrees out there that can't get a job, and it's not because they're not trying.

149 posted on 11/04/2002 11:00:37 AM PST by FormerLurker
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To: FormerLurker
well, I know I read somewhere, on an anti-H1B web-site probably, that said that H1B people have the normal payroll taxes withheld, but all of this money sent to their home government. Other people say it varies from country to country. Maybe so, maybe this aspect of the program is in flux.

Either way, we're talking about government intervention into the marketplace to drive wages down for 1-2 million people from about 70 grand a year to 50 grand a year, and the means of doing this is to get a bunch of americans out of those jobs and a bunch of foreigners into those jobs.
150 posted on 11/04/2002 11:21:38 AM PST by Red Jones
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To: Red Jones
Either way, we're talking about government intervention into the marketplace to drive wages down for 1-2 million people from about 70 grand a year to 50 grand a year, and the means of doing this is to get a bunch of americans out of those jobs and a bunch of foreigners into those jobs.

Exactly. Some people say that we're seeking protectionism. Actually, we are seeking a reversal of corporate protectionism that was enacted within the past 5 years which drastically changed the played field. The rights of corporations have been made more important than the rights of American workers. If allowed to, corporations would have workers working 20 hour days for free. That is why there HAS to be some level of regulation in order to prevent companies from replacing US citizens with slaves.

151 posted on 11/04/2002 11:40:12 AM PST by FormerLurker
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To: FormerLurker
I worked with some H1-B programmers in the past, and was not satisfied with their work - however, my background is in fairly specialized database marketing in the financial sector, where business knowledge is more important than technical knowledge. Although I don't like the H1-B program, especially since it puts a lot of American programmers on the street as employers and politicians claim that more tech workers are needed, in the end you really can't do much about it, as companies will generally find a way to get cheaper labor, either here or by outsourcing overseas. The best approach for a technical worker, IMO, is to find a field where business and cultural aspects make it difficult for foreign programmers to compete with you.
152 posted on 11/04/2002 11:51:19 AM PST by dirtboy
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To: dirtboy
The best approach for a technical worker, IMO, is to find a field where business and cultural aspects make it difficult for foreign programmers to compete with you.

I truthfully can't think of any such field.

153 posted on 11/04/2002 11:54:36 AM PST by FormerLurker
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To: FormerLurker
I truthfully can't think of any such field.

There are quite a few - for example, with database marketing, you need a clear understanding of both the financial sector and consumer behavior.

And, I recently saw an article where companies are hiring older technical employees at the expense of young hotshots - because right now, after all the dot-com insanity, companies need folks who are grounded, who have experienced both ups AND downs and know how to handle both. Same thing happened with my brother in the financial sector - by 1999, he was surrounded by guys who were in high school during the 1987 crash, at a time when he had already been working for seven years. They thought he was washed-up, too old, too conservative. They didn't understand that markets can go down as well as up. He did. They got torched. He didn't.

You need to, at some point in your career (or line of work), figure out how to get the most of your experience. Continuing to be a line programmer or analyst typically won't accomplish that.

154 posted on 11/04/2002 12:03:26 PM PST by dirtboy
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To: dirtboy
You need to, at some point in your career (or line of work), figure out how to get the most of your experience. Continuing to be a line programmer or analyst typically won't accomplish that.

I WAS hoping to go back to school eventually for post-graduate courses at night. I WAS hoping to get into more of a cutting edge R&D position. Now I'd be lucky to GET a job at my entry level wage back in 1985.

155 posted on 11/04/2002 12:12:10 PM PST by FormerLurker
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To: FormerLurker
I WAS hoping to go back to school eventually for post-graduate courses at night. I WAS hoping to get into more of a cutting edge R&D position. Now I'd be lucky to GET a job at my entry level wage back in 1985.

What's your field?

156 posted on 11/04/2002 12:17:35 PM PST by dirtboy
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To: fogarty
If you hired an H1 Visa Holder over a equally qualified American citizen...

I did not. I hired the 2 candidates (of many interviewed) that were best qualified to perform the duties for the positions. I suppose I could have searched longer and held out for a US citizen, but I did not have that luxury due to a need to stay competive with the products we are developing. If we are not competetive, we eventually go out of business, and 40 people (most of them US citizens) lose their jobs and the ability to support their families.

157 posted on 11/04/2002 12:19:13 PM PST by ExpatCanuck
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To: Camber-G
Don't the H1B visa personnel get laid off before citizens ? That's the law, isn't it ?

If it's the law they are sure not following it ... after 8 months unemployment ... I would know

158 posted on 11/04/2002 12:21:05 PM PST by clamper1797
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To: dirtboy
What's your field?

Software engineer. Last system I worked on was an optical networking add/drop multiplexer.

159 posted on 11/04/2002 12:30:56 PM PST by FormerLurker
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To: FormerLurker
Software engineer. Last system I worked on was an optical networking add/drop multiplexer.

Kewl. A friend of mine was doing similar on flow-control devices. Now he's middle management and just got a new job with a $60K a year raise. He doesn't write a lick of code anymore. Quite frankly, the middle class is splitting apart, into lower middle class and upper middle class, and so many people are studying technology around the world that there is going to be intense competition for jobs in that area.

160 posted on 11/04/2002 12:33:36 PM PST by dirtboy
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