English And Welsh Are Races Apart

BBC ^ | 6-30-2002

[blam]

Sunday, 30 June, 2002, 15:31 GMT 16:31 UK

English and Welsh are races apart

Gene scientists claim to have found proof that the Welsh are the "true" Britons.

The research supports the idea that Celtic Britain underwent a form of ethnic cleansing by Anglo-Saxons invaders following the Roman withdrawal in the fifth century.

Genetic tests show clear differences between the Welsh and English

It suggests that between 50% and 100% of the indigenous population of what was to become England was wiped out, with Offa's Dyke acting as a "genetic barrier" protecting those on the Welsh side.

And the upheaval can be traced to this day through genetic differences between the English and the Welsh.

Academics at University College in London comparing a sample of men from the UK with those from an area of the Netherlands where the Anglo-Saxons are thought to have originated found the English subjects had genes that were almost identical.

But there were clear differences between the genetic make-up of Welsh people studied.

The research team studied the Y-chromosome, which is passed almost unchanged from father to son, and looked for certain genetic markers.

Ethnic links: Many races share common bonds

They chose seven market towns mentioned in the Domesday Book of 1086 and studied 313 male volunteers whose paternal grandfather had also lived in the area.

They then compared this with samples from Norway and with Friesland, now a northern province of the Netherlands.

The English and Frisians studied had almost identical genetic make-up but the English and Welsh were very different.

The researchers concluded the most likely explanation for this was a large-scale Anglo-Saxon invasion, which devastated the Celtic population of England, but did not reach Wales.

Dr Mark Thomas, of the Centre for Genetic Anthropology at UCL, said their findings suggested that a migration occurred within the last 2,500 years.

Genetic links

It reinforced the idea that the Welsh were the true indigenous Britons.

In April last year, research for a BBC programme on the Vikings revealed strong genetic links between the Welsh and Irish Celts and the Basques of northern Spain and south France.

It suggested a possible link between the Celts and Basques, dating back tens of thousands of years.

The UCL research into the more recent Anglo-Saxon period suggested a migration on a huge scale.

"It appears England is made up of an ethnic cleansing event from people coming across from the continent after the Romans left," he said.

Celtic Britons

Archaeologists after the Second World War rejected the traditionally held view that an Anglo-Saxon invasion pushed the indigenous Celtic Britons to the fringes of Britain.

Instead, they said the arrival of Anglo-Saxon culture could have come from trade or a small ruling elite.

But the latest research by the UCL team, "using genetics as a history book", appears to support the original view of a large-scale invasion of England.

It suggests that the Welsh border was more of a genetic barrier to the Anglo-Saxon Y chromosome gene flow than the North Sea.

Dr Thomas added: "Our findings completely overturn the modern view of the origins of the English."

[LostTribe]

OK, I've tried to respond to your assertions. Now it's your turn to respond. Here is my case, in 3 minutes:

 

A 3-MINUTE HISTORY

Four Thousand years ago, Abraham (a great-great grandson of Shem, a son of Noah) and a small group of Hebrews (of which there were & are many varieties) migrated from southern Iraq to Canaan (~Palestine). Several generations later, around 1853 BC, his Grandson Jacob (who was renamed Israel ) and his 12 Sons and families moved to Egypt. As offspring of Shem, they were called "Shemites" or "Semites", as were his many other offspring.

~1453 BC, now as the 12 Tribes of the 12 Sons of Israel, and over 3 Million strong, these Semites bailed out of Egypt in the well-documented EXODUS and fled back to ~Palestine.  But the Tribes “couldn't all get along” there, so ~922 BC these 5 Million Israelites split into the Northern and Southern Kingdoms.

(In actual numbers, 5 Million people is about the same size as Ireland, Norway, Denmark or Israel today, and was 10% of the estimated 50 Million world population at that time. The world population is now ONE HUNDRED TIMES as large. Compared to todays 6 Billion people, the Israelites relative population would have been over twice as large as the United States of America!)

The very large Northern Kingdom was made up of 10 of the Tribes. Inheriting the Kingly names which applied to all 12 Tribes before the split, it (alone) becomes known as the Kingdom of Israel or House of Israel, (and House of Joseph and House of Ephriam ), and is led by the Tribe of Ephraim . These Northern Israelites were taken into captivity by the Assyrians ~722 BC and relocated to the northern Fertile Crescent area of Iraq/Iran. They were not diligent in updating their eMail addresses, thus were called, by some, the "Lost Tribes", or "Lost Sheep" or "Lost Children" of the Kingdom or House of Israel. (But at ~1/12 of the worlds population it seems unlikely they would actually disappear, or get "lost". The global population ~75 Million.)

A hundred years later, this "lost" Northern Kingdom of Israel with now over 6 Million Israelites helped the Medes and Persians overthrow the Assyrians, then escaped north through the Caucasus Mountains and past the Black and Caspian Seas, to explode into history ~610 BC as The Celts. These Celts mixed with (and fought against) each other, and other scattered Israelites (proto-Celts) who had escaped from Egypt by sea a thousand years earlier and established numerous outposts in Europe and elsewhere.

These Millions of Celts grew over time to become Hundreds of Millions as they migrated in waves westward and northwest to Galatia, Ephesus, Corinth, Phillipi, to what is today Hallstadt, Austria and Neuchatel, Switzerland (where exist major Celtic digs and museums) and beyond, to dominate Northern and Western Europe. These Celts (also as Angles, Saxons, Scythians, Cimmerians, etc.) are the rootstock of today’s Europeans, and Americans.

The much smaller Southern Kingdom was made up of the Tribe of Judah & a mix of Levites and Benjamites. It was also known as the Kingdom of Judah or House of Judah . These Southern Israelites were taken captive in ~587 BC and removed to Babylon. Only ~50,000 returned to Palestine ~70 years later. They and their offspring are called Jews.

[Torie]

These Millions of Celts grew over time to become Hundreds of Millions

Where does that figure come from? That would about cover the whole planet of homo sapiens at the time. Are the Chinese Celts too?

[LostTribe]

>These Millions of Celts grew over time to become Hundreds of Millions.

That would about cover the whole planet of homo sapiens at the time.

Ah, er, no. There are currently over 6 BILLION homo sapiens on the whole planet.

[Polybius]

Arrrr! They aren't reeel Celts unless they have music fehtured on the Thisstle and Shamruck, hosted by Fiona Reechy on Nashunal Pooblic Rehdio.

But they do. They even play and tour with the Chieftains.

The Celtic Music of Spain -- Galicia & Asturias

Regards,
Polybius (Possessor of a Galician Y-Chromosome)

[Myrddin]

Are you affiliated with the Welsh Peoples Front or the Peoples Front of Wales.

The proper reference is "Plaid Cymru" which translates to "Welsh Party". Unfortunately, Plaid Cymru is strongly tied to labor and socialists. Nearly every item in their party platform ends with the statement "based on socialist principles". A Welsh language group participant once indicated a desire to help economic development in Wales. Said participant asked if their was anyway to assist without buying in to the "socialist" principles. The collective answer was no. I'm so grateful that my relatives left Wales for America in 1863. I regret that they did not maintain Welsh and English languages within the family, but the choice to go English only ensured that the family would prosper in the U.S. We have. Engineers. Farmers. Teachers. Military officers. Happy Fourth of July!

[dr_who]

http://sunsite.berkeley.edu/OMACL/Anglo/part1.html

Personally, I don't think the writer knows what he's talking about, what with it being the dark ages and all when it was written, but...

[LostTribe]

The Anglo-Saxon Chronicle is a well known historic document, in England. There is much debate (over there) as to it's accuracy, but not, I don't think, because of WHEN it was written.

[Skalven]

Sad to say, the same holds true for the SNP [Scottish Nationalist party] and its fundraiser Sean Connery. The same ideology appears to be behind the Irish "freedom fighters"

Perhaps this is true of most Celtic groups? Any opinions on this, anyone?

[leilani]

"Did you know their is a Galicia in Southeastern Europe (Austria?)in addition to the Galicia in NW Spain?"

Actually I do remember that.Didn't St. Paul write a letter to 'em or something? Isn't it over across the sea at what used to be Yugoslavia, maybe what is now Croatia? Heck, I don't know. I do know the Celts started out in of all places SWITZERLAND!!!! So Celts/Galls are everywhere, even if it pisses all the purist "PICTS" (HA!) who claim they are the only true Britons!!! (Luv to piss those losers off!!!)

[JudyB1938]

The Anglo-Saxon Chronicle

Britannia
http://www.britannia.com/histo ry/docs/asintro2.html

Gutenberg Online Books
http://digital.library.upenn.e du/webbin/gutbook/lookup?num=6 57

The New Anglo-Saxon Chronicle
http://www.buckrogers.demon.co .uk/nasc.htm

[LostTribe]

>Actually I do remember that.Didn't St. Paul write a letter to 'em or something?

Yes, Paul wrote a number of his letters to CELTS .  Jesus told his disciples to go to them first.  But the whole story is a little more complex, and to understand it some detail is needed, starting with the some definitions:

GENTILE is a generic word. Like the words FOREIGNER and STRANGER it has no specific meaning until the user gives it a context. A Foreigner to one person is a Countryman to another.  A Stranger to one person is a Friend to another.  A Gentile to one group of people is a Relative to another group.

Recognizing that "Gentile" simply means "not quite like us" Mormons call non-Mormons "Gentiles" and Jews call non-Jews "Gentiles".  But outside a specific context the word Gentile does not stand on it's own.

For Example: The Lost Sheep of the House of Israel are a unique sub-set of Gentiles who are Israelites, but not Jews. From a Jewish perspective they are Gentiles, but from an Israelite perspective they are not.  So when we read:

Matthew 10:5-6  These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: "Do not go into the way of the Gentiles , and do not enter a city of the Samaritans . But go rather to the Lost Sheep of The House of Israel."

we need to remember that the Title House of Israel was assigned to the Northern Kingdom as part of their Eternal Heritage when the Davidic Kingdom split.  Its members were never Jewish, therefore Jesus command to go first to the Lost Sheep of The House of Israel was NOT a command to go first to lost Jews.

Jesus was both an Israelite and a Jew and what He said here was "do not go to the Israelite Gentiles."   (A common misinterpretation has Him talking about Jewish Gentiles .)

The House of Israel later became The Lost Tribes of Israel who won their freedom from the Assyrians ~610 BC. These 5 MILLION Israelites spread quickly to the West and North where they became known to history as The CELTS and later as The Europeans and Americans. It was to these non-Jewish ISRAELITE CELTIC GENTILES in Galatia , etc. that Jesus first sent his 12 apostles.

These Northern Kingdom Israelites were not Jews, thus were Gentiles in the Jewish sense.  But they were not Gentiles in the Israelite sense because they WERE Israelites. This huge nation of Israelites was simply called the The Lost Sheep of the House of Israel .

These ISRAELITE CELTIC GENTILES made up the bulk of the early Christians, and all the promises they received as Israelites were, and are, still good today. Gods inheritance has no statue of limitations.

[leilani]

Sadly, I don't think Thor Heyerdahl (sp?) ever proved anything conclusively at all. He was the Ted Turner of his day. He tried sort of hard, in his rich kid way, but unfortunately he never managed to prove anything empirically about anything, least of all his ideas about racial/ethnic migration.Don't get me wrong: he was great,the Kon Tiki was amazing, but he didn't prove anything conclusively, unless you take as an "expert" the folks at his namesake gift shop in Oslo.

[MinorityRepublican]

However, the Basque language is not related in any way to the Indo-European languages. (Which still puzzles me.)

It confuses me too, are the Basque people even real Europeans?

[stands2reason]

Boadicea or Boudicca is my legendary ancestor.

[LostTribe]

>Sadly, I don't think Thor Heyerdahl (sp?) ever proved anything conclusively at all.

I'm afraid you are right, but he sure had fun trying. In the process he upset all sorts of tight-a@@ academics with all the answers and the keys to that kingdom.

While he may not have "proven" much of what he set out to prove, he did prove (at least in my mind) that man could travel where he traveled, and in the way he did, and that is a remarkable achievement.

[dr_who]

Don't get me wrong. I'm sure it's about as authoritative as you could possibly be back then regarding the origins of the Saxons in England, given that much of its probably based on oral history instead of other published works. But the bit about the Picts coming south from Scythia and the Britons coming from Armenia strikes me as being a bit off the mark. Somehow I can't accept that Jews were originally Saxons either. Jesus turning water into mead just doesn't work for me.

[stands2reason]

Exactly! Welsh means "stranger", and that's totally demeaning!

[LostTribe]

>Somehow I can't accept that Jews were originally Saxons either. Jesus turning water into mead just doesn't work for me.

Wow! I don't know where you are coming from on those??? Care to elaborate, keying off my 3-MINUTE History?

[dr_who]

Of course not. The rest of Spain isn't part of Europe. God just tacked it onto the end of France at the last minute.

[dr_who]

That's just the point. That's 3 minutes I can't spare.