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Genetic Survey Reveals Hidden Celts Of England
The Sunday Times (UK) ^ | 12-02-2001 | John Elliott/Tom Robbins

Posted on 12/06/2001 6:35:33 AM PST by blam

SUNDAY DECEMBER 02 2001

Genetic survey reveals hidden Celts of England

JOHN ELLIOTT AND TOM ROBBINS

THE Celts of Scotland and Wales are not as unique as some of them like to think. New research has revealed that the majority of Britons living in the south of England share the same DNA as their Celtic counterparts.

The findings, based on the DNA analysis of more than 2,000 people, poses the strongest challenge yet to the conventional historical view that the ancient Britons were forced out of most of England by hordes of Anglo-Saxon invaders.

It suggests that far from being purged and forced to retreat into Wales, Cornwall and Scotland when the AngloSaxons invaded in the 5th century, many ancient Britons remained in England.

The study, conducted by geneticists at University College London, found that as many as three-quarters of the men tested in some parts of the south of England have the same Y-chromosome as the ancient Britons or Celts, rather than that of the Anglo-Saxons.

Overall, the scientists found that between 50% and 75% of those tested in parts of southern England were directly descended from Celts, implying that they had survived the Anglo-Saxon invasion. In Scotland the proportion of those with Celtic ancestry was found to be little different from the population of southern England.

"The evidence is quite strong that there is a substantial indigenous component remaining in England," said Professor David Goldstein, who led the study. "Genetics has opened up a powerful window on the past. We can now trace the movements of peoples and address questions that have proved difficult to answer through history and archeology alone."

The study, commissioned by BBC2 for its current Blood of the Vikings series, was designed to assess the impact of Norwegian and Danish Vikings, as well as Anglo-Saxons, on the British population.

Researchers took swabs of saliva from 2,000 people in 30 locations around Britain, and from 400 people in Norway, Denmark and Schleswig- Holstein, the area in northern Germany identified by the team as a homeland of the AngloSaxons. Those taking part had to have lived in the area for at least two generations.

Scientists then examined the Y-chromosome, which is passed unchanged down the male line of a family and is thus not altered by intermarriage.

The analysis showed that 60% of the men tested on Orkney were descended from Norwegian Vikings, as well as 30% of those in the Hebrides. While the Viking influence in these areas has been well known, it had been suggested that they were simply a ruling elite who did little interbreeding with the local population.

On the mainland, the survey found that 70% of those tested in York were from the continental European groups rather than the indigenous population, suggesting that the Anglo-Saxons made more of an impact on the Celts in northern England.

Only 10% of those tested in Wales were of Anglo-Saxon origin, confirming that it has retained an almost exclusively Celtic population.

In recent years the fate of the Celts in England has become hotly debated. Many historians have come to doubt the traditional story about the flight of the Celts from southern England, which was based largely on the account of Gildas, the 6th-century historian.

"There are various schools of thought ranging from near genocide (of the Celts) to almost total survival," said Patrick Sims-Williams, professor of Celtic studies at the University of Wales. "There could have been mass flight as well — it’s partly a matter of scholarly fashion, coming and going from generation to generation."

The genetic data will be eagerly received by scholars. Many of the place names in southern England have Celtic origins. Among them are Leatherhead, in Surrey, which meant "the grey ford".

"If you believe Gildas, the Anglo-Saxons would have been chasing the ancient Britons, catching up with one who wasn’t fast enough and saying, ‘Look here, before I cut off your head, just tell me the name of this place’," said Dr Margaret Gelling, a leading authority on place names.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: agriculture; ancientautopsies; ancientnavigation; anglosaxons; archaeology; bookofinvasions; bronzeage; caledonia; celts; cornwall; epigraphyandlanguage; fartyshadesofgreen; genealogy; ggg; gingergene; godsgravesglyphs; hebrides; helixmakemineadouble; history; indoeuropeans; ireland; neolithic; norway; orkney; pictish; picts; scotland; scotlandyet; uk; unitedkingdom; vikings; wales; welsh
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To: blam
All this proves is that the Celts have an amazingly strong bloodline.
81 posted on 12/06/2001 8:48:29 PM PST by McGavin999
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To: blam
Click on the Homepage link in your Profile. THEN look at the URL address and see that it needs editing. (Hope you put lots of stuff about tree rings on that site when you develop it!)
82 posted on 12/06/2001 8:57:59 PM PST by LostTribe
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To: LostTribe
"Have you actually read the history of the Lost Tribes of Israel, or just shooting from the hip?"

I read some of it then took a hip shot. lol (I promise to read it all) The tree rings are physical evidence supported by numerous ice core data, you gotta believe that, huh?

83 posted on 12/06/2001 8:59:38 PM PST by blam
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To: PJ-Comix
In Maryland, it would be Algonquin, Conoy Nation, Piscataway tribe. Only in the last 40 years was it proven that the Piscataways never left Maryland, but stayed and culturally assimilated, while retaining considerable ethnic continuity.
84 posted on 12/06/2001 9:01:02 PM PST by VietVet
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To: LostTribe
"Click on the Homepage link in your Profile. THEN look at the URL address and see that it needs editing."

I don't know what you mean, I'm not very computer smart. My son (Dr. blam) set that up for me last xmas when he was here. I'll try to figure out what you're talking about.

85 posted on 12/06/2001 9:04:33 PM PST by blam
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To: McGavin999
Would you believe Galatians in the Bible refers to Celts who settled in an area near Turkey? There was a Galicia in NW Spain and also in the Carpathians. the term is derived from Gaul which was the homeland of the Celts. Celts even lived in Southern Sweden. All Europeans are a bit Celt and all English are part Celt and part Germanic.
86 posted on 12/06/2001 9:06:43 PM PST by Eternal_Bear
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To: blam
bump for later reading
87 posted on 12/06/2001 9:30:00 PM PST by d4now
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To: blam
>I don't know what you mean, I'm not very computer smart.

You can do it. First click on your own Profile, the name BLAM, at the lower bottom of any message YOU already SENT.

Then, at the upper right of your profile page which pops up, see the HOMEPAGE address your son installed, as in Geocities. CLICK on that HOMEPAGE.

Then, when that Geocities homepage comes up, look at the URL line and see that the address is wrong -- it's too long. Needs to be edited to get FreeRepublic out of it. That will route visitors to the right place.

88 posted on 12/06/2001 9:41:18 PM PST by LostTribe
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To: Eternal_Bear
>Would you believe Galatians in the Bible refers to Celts who settled in an area near Turkey?

Yep, this is the Galatia where Paul visited. Jesus said in Matthew 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. He was talking about Galatia and the other Celtic strongholds where Paul went.

Galacia and Phillipi and Ephesus and Corinth etc, were settlements of the Lost Tribes of Israel who, over 600 years before, escaped their Assyrian captivity and headed north through the Caucasas Mountains, thence westward to Galacia, and Hallstadt Austria, and Neuchatel Switzerland, and to the rest of North and Western Eurpope.

89 posted on 12/06/2001 9:51:54 PM PST by LostTribe
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To: BluH2o
Isn't the French Basque dialect very similar to the Welsh dialect? Read this sometime ago ...

No, but the dialect of Brittany is similar to Welsh. A wave of migration from Britain into Western France occurred after the Anglo-Saxon invasion.
90 posted on 12/06/2001 10:21:09 PM PST by Hemlock
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To: blam
I expect the Basque did have a larger area under their control at one time. They probably survived all attacks by withdrawing to the mountains between Spain/France where they live to this day.

You're right. They did control a larger area. In fact, they were known by the Romans as Aquitanians. Linguistic records have proven this beyond a reasonable doubt.

Prehistory and Connections with Other Languages

Scroll down for the information concerning the Aquitanians.
91 posted on 12/06/2001 10:30:11 PM PST by Hemlock
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To: LostTribe
You've been reading too many histories based on Roman rumour

It seems to me that you have a big chronology problem in many of your references. The Viking invasions of England and Gaul started around 900 BC, the western Roman Empire had ceased to exist nearly 500 years prior to this. If you mean Roman Catholic (which itself would be anachronistic), say so. If you mean 'Romania' (in the general sense, that is, all areas which had been part of the Empire), say so.

92 posted on 12/07/2001 12:47:43 AM PST by Lucius Cornelius Sulla
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To: blam
Just as they did the 'dumb brute', Neanderthals. (I think we are the Neanderthals, so there!)

Sorry blam, there are two problems with this: Neanderthals were extinct at the beginning of history, so historians say nothing about them, it is the anthropologists who do; while I would like to think that we have Neanderthal ancestors, it looks like modern genetics has ruled this out.

93 posted on 12/07/2001 12:51:39 AM PST by Lucius Cornelius Sulla
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To: LN2Campy
The Basques were excellent seamen and fished the Georges Bank for cod hundreds of years prior to Columbus.

That is highly improbable ... otherwise the Azores would have been discovered long before 1420 when the Portugese were the first Europeans to discover the islands.

94 posted on 12/07/2001 5:48:58 AM PST by BluH2o
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To: LostTribe
You're talking about the www.gulfcoasthurricanes.com home page? That was set up by SAS-MS for the Gulf Coast Chapter of FR. Looks like the rent wasn't paid. (ugh). I'll email her about this. lol.
95 posted on 12/07/2001 7:05:27 AM PST by blam
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To: Hemlock
"Prehistory and Connections with Other Languages.

Very interseting link. Thanks.

96 posted on 12/07/2001 7:15:35 AM PST by blam
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To: blam
Yep, but this is what comes up when clicking on your HOME PAGE from outside your computer. (Not a big deal, but I thought you would like to know. It's a commonly seen error on FR.) Have a nice day. -LT

http://www.freerepublic.com/perl/www.gulfcoasthurricanes.com

97 posted on 12/07/2001 7:18:24 AM PST by LostTribe
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To: Lucius Cornelius Sulla
"Sorry blam, there are two problems with this: Neanderthals were extinct at the beginning of history, so historians say nothing about them, it is the anthropologists who do; while I would like to think that we have Neanderthal ancestors, it looks like modern genetics has ruled this out."

Yup. I've read those DNA reports. Discouraging, I agree.

98 posted on 12/07/2001 7:19:07 AM PST by blam
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To: Interesting Times; blam; harpseal; vikingchick
You don't even need to kill all or even most of the men.

Just kill the resistors and holdouts, and the rest will learn to say "Yes Sir" in the new language real fast.

99 posted on 12/07/2001 7:22:50 AM PST by Travis McGee
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To: BluH2o
"The Basques were excellent seamen and fished the Georges Bank for cod hundreds of years prior to Columbus.

That is highly improbable ... otherwise the Azores would have been discovered long before 1420 when the Portugese were the first (modern) Europeans to discover the islands.

The comet that plunged into the Celtic Sea in 540AD and brought on the Dark Ages may have had something to do with this. (evidence for this comet is recorded in the worldwide tree ring data.)

100 posted on 12/07/2001 7:26:33 AM PST by blam
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