A Battlefield for Tax Reform - Vanity

vanity | 9/17/06 | Principled

[Principled]

A Battlefield for Tax Reform

There are a few significant battlefields in the war for tax reform. One of them is Free Republic. What makes the Free Republic battlefield significant is that the debate is at the cutting edge. The debate on Free Republic is the most current and most knowledgeable. It is a year ahead of other significant battlefields (radio talk shows, political town-hall meetings, conversations among neighbors and coworkers.)

The trend on Free Republic with respect to tax reform is going to show up in the real world. Free Republic is a tiny segment of the world, albeit a more educated, more politically motivated, more affluent segment than most. Perhaps those are a few of the reasons that Free Republic predicts what will happen in the real world – the world of radio, newspapers, network television, and most importantly - elections.

The choices are

Keep the status quo and continue with our graduated income tax
Eliminate the income tax and implement a flat income tax (although this option has negligible support)
Eliminate the income tax and implement a national sales tax

There are no other options. We are going to have taxes. The only choice is deciding the best way to have them.

Whichever choice you prefer, one thing is clear. The opponents of tax reform on Free Republic will stop at nothing to protect the status quo. Here’s what’s happening on Free Republic (remember it’s a predictor of what will happen in the real world.)

Opponents of reform randomly select perceived problems, however insignificant, and say that’s the reason this reform cannot work. For example, attackers of HR 25 (the “Fair Tax”) have alternately said the rate is too high and then the rate is too low. Whatever seems to get traction is what they stick with. Is it no wonder the perception is that these anti-reformers are not being honest with the reason(s) they oppose the reform. This is why so many question the motives of the anti-reformers. What are they hiding?

The anti-reformers try to make the reform threads so unpleasant that people choose not to participate in them (what does this predict about the real world?)

An anti-reformer may be taking advantage of the positions he he was entrusted with by the site (modertor). By taking sides in threads, berating and belittling pro-nrst posters, by deleting threads, by locking threads, and by moving threads from news/ACTIVISM to “Bloggers and Personal” and to “Smokey Backroom”, the mod(s) in question are taking away from the greatest site on the internet. Sometimes, threads are moved to bloggers and then moved to SBR or vica versa.

Pro-nrst posters are suspended for things that don’t make sense. Anti nrst posters are not suspended for things that should require it - comes to mind the picture of a dog copulating with a pig with the comment “screw you pigdog”… “I found a picture of your parents”. Noteworthy is that the poster of said graphic and phrase were not suspended but rather the recipient of it was suspended for complaining about it.

What does this predict about the real world?

Suffice to say that the debate about tax reform is won by the reformers. The proof is that when educated about the three reform options, the general public chooses the nrst over 70% of the time.

The only question is whether the dishonesty of the anti-reformers will slow the progress of reform in the real world. This is NOT to say that all anti reformers are dishonest - but it is the dishonest ones who are tainting the others.

The good thing about the debate is that the nrst is the most thoroughly investigated alternative - each and every point is debated in complete detail. Problems have been identified and some changes have been made. That's a good thing. And as debate continues, the level of knowledge of any lurkers continues. As I said, I predict over 70% will choose the nrst.

[Your Nightmare]

Probably so. I seem to recall you making a concerted effort to get me banned several threads ago by continually citing supposed "grievances" and "violations".

Nobody need to make an effort to get you banned. You do fine all by yourself.

[pigdog]

Nightie has a loooooonnnnngggg history of trying to distract FairTax threads in any manner possible to get them off-topic. He'll frequently launch into the "how many angels dance on the head of a pin" or similar topic as a diversion.

You'll see him try the same stunt on this thread soon no doubt. He's merely a disruptor troll when he starts this M.O.

[Bigun]

There are no other options. We are going to have taxes. The only choice is deciding the best way to have them.

AMEN!

Are we going to have a tax system worthy of free people or will we continue to endure the communist inspired mess we currently have? THAT is the question.

[Bigun]

Please. The most unpleasant person, by far, on these FairTax threads is pigdog...

Is he really unpleasant or is it just that YOU see him that way because he makes arguments that do not comport with YOUR views and YOU are unable to refute them?

[tpaine]

Those that can't rationally defend their positions often do exactly that. -- They erroneously claim their opposition is making a personal attack, and demand that the mods protect them..
-- 'Funny' tactic, isn't it?

Sure kills "real debate".

And it's up to the Mods to determine if there was really a personal attack.

Yep, - which puts them on the 'spot', and whichever way they decide, it creates more bad feelings and flame wars on FR.

All because some here can't learn to defend their political positions with common sense & rational debate.

[Bigun]

...FairTax plan which is an absolute nonstarter in Washington.

According to whom? Last time I looked the FairTax plan had more support in Washington than all other tax reform measures combined!

[Jacquerie]

Of historical note, 1911-1920 was a horrible decade. The meat grinder of WW I rightfully overshadowed significant changes to our constitution. Still, the populist amendments have and continue to do great harm to our republic.

The 16th legalized an income tax. A later (FDR?) supreme court found that progressivity was constitutional. So much for equal protection, right? It has morphed into a communist fantasy that relieves producers of their hard earned wealth.

The 17th removed state input from federal law making. The upper house of our national legistlature that was designed to be above the rabble of the populist mob has become a copy of the lower house, albeit with six year terms. Rather than cool the temper of representative government, the likes of Kennedy fan the flame of class warfare to the detriment of our country.

The 18th banned alcohol, a bad idea rescinded less than fifteen years later.

The 19th granted women the right to vote. I will defer to men braver than me to point out any downside.

IMO these populist amendments, and later scotus rulings regarding them, set the stage for our current problems. The democrat party as we know it could not exist without the female vote, the graduated income tax or senator's reliance on inner city votes bought with the sweat of producers.

[Principled]

And it's up to the Mods to determine if there was really a personal attack and, if so, warn or ban that person.

Ah... depends on which mod doesn't it?

From the posted vanity...

An anti-reformer may be taking advantage of the positions he he was entrusted with by the site (modertor). By taking sides in threads, berating and belittling pro-nrst posters,...

[Principled]

There is now a concerted effort to get me banned. I am in receipt of some private FReepmails showing it.

[Your Nightmare]

There is now a concerted effort to get me banned. I am in receipt of some private FReepmails showing it.

Ooooo, another conspiracy! Do tell!

You guys are turning into a real tin-foil hat group.

[Principled]

Why does it surprise you that a group of anti reformers get together to concentrate some complaints on a particular pro reformer?

Do you deny it happened with pigdog? It was pretty obvious.

Now rob is sending emails to jimrob asking to get rid of me - even though the mods did not react to his complaint.

It must've not been the one mod in question!

[Bigun]

Excellent post!

Spot on analysis!

[Bigun]

...does it surprise you that a group of anti reformers get together to concentrate some complaints on a particular pro reformer?

It shouldn't surprise anyone as that is what they do when they cannot refute the legitimate arguments being presented.

[tpaine]

You are not alone.

Anyone that uses an uncompromising constitutional position in debate will eventually be accused by their opponents of personal attacks.

[It is impossible to refute unconstitutional positions without causing 'offense']

Those who want to argue/debate constitutional issues cannot claim a 'personal attack' just because their opinions on the issue are being refuted. -- The old heat/kitchen/thick skin homily must apply to these types of debates.

[Principled]

And so they cause such a stir and start flame wars so that:
-the thread is moved
-posters get suspended

It is indeed the goal of some to stifle discussion as such. They want the thread to be hidden. That's why all this started a while ago. Simply an abuse report sent the thread away. ONce they discovered they could control the behavior of the mods like this, they went wild.

[Principled]

The old heat/kitchen/thick skin homily must apply to these types of debates.

I agree. But what's happened is that those who want to stifle the debate have discovered how to control the behavior of the mods wrt hiding threads. Simply hit abuse and irrespective of the circumstances, the thread is moved, locked or deleted.

I don't blame the mods one bit. They were left with little choice.

As I said, it is going to happen in the real world.

[Bigun]

It is indeed the goal of some to stifle discussion as such. They want the thread to be hidden. That's why all this started a while ago. Simply an abuse report sent the thread away. ONce they discovered they could control the behavior of the mods like this, they went wild.

I have pinged Jim Rob to this thread. Let's see what happens as a result.

[Your Nightmare]

Why does it surprise you that a group of anti reformers get together to concentrate some complaints on a particular pro reformer? Do you deny it happened with pigdog? It was pretty obvious.

If there were a lot of complaints about pigdog, I'm sure he earned them. There was no "get together" to concentrate complaints against pigdog that I was involved in. And you give the Admins too little credit. Do you think they ban somebody because the get a lot of complaints?

[Your Nightmare]

And so they cause such a stir and start flame wars so that: -the thread is moved -posters get suspended

Once again y'all ignore the main source of the problems - pigdog. The FairTaxers have no basis to complain as long as they sit quiet at his antics.

[outofsalt]

Support exists and is growing!
Check out this old poll: http://www.freerepublic.com/perl/post?id+1703054%2C29
Once we correct the abuses of the collection of taxes
it will be easier to tackle the other side of the coin, spending!