So How Far Did The Phoenicians Really Go In The Region?

In one of the early adventures of Asterix and Obelix, a Phoenician trade ship takes the world’s funniest Celtic warriors from the Gaul’s last village free from Roman rule to Queen Cleopatra in the land of the Nile. Now, of course this is but an image in a comic book, but still, is it possible that the Phoenicians, generally known as the greatest seafarers of antiquity, actually reached Brittany, or even further?

There’s no doubt that Phoenicians were well established all over the Mediterranean. Archeological remains prove they lived in a vast network of cities at Cyprus, Malta, Sicily, Spain and the African coast, where Carthage became the powerbroker of the western Mediterranean till the rise of Rome.

Archeological finds take us even further, past Gibraltar’s “Pillars of Hercules,” to Phoenician settlements on the Atlantic coast of Morocco and Portugal. But that’s it. So far no physical proof of any further exploits has been found. However, there are some spectacular written sources.

First of all, there are two Latin texts that relate of the journey of Himilco, who in the 5th century BC sailed from Carthage around Iberia (Spain) to northern Europe. According to these sources, Himilco did not go ashore in Brittany to pick up any Celtic warriors, but crossed the Channel to Great Britain.

“It’s a story not that unlikely,” said Helen Sadr, professor of Archeology at the American University of Beirut. “The Phoenicians always had a keen interest in precious metals and Britain was renowned for its tin, which was already traded over land. What’s more, finds in Britain prove close contacts with Iberia, which for centuries was a colony of Carthage. Combine that with the Phoenician settlements found in Portugal and a journey to England is not that far-fetched.”

A second story about Phoenician exploits stems from the Greek “father of history” Herodotus. In a chapter on the world’s (three) continents in “Histories,” he writes that “as for Libya (Africa), we know it to be washed on all sides by the sea, except where it’s attached to Egypt. This discovery was made by Necos, the Egyptian king, who … sent to sea a number of ships manned by Phoenicians, with orders to make it to the Pillars of Hercules (Gibraltar) and return to Egypt.”

According to Herodotus the Phoenicians sailed south from the Red Sea. Every autumn they went ashore, sowed corn and waited till it was ripe to set to sail again. It took them three years to get back to Egypt. “On their return,” Herodotus writes, “they declared I for my part do not believe them that in sailing around Libya they had the sun upon their right hand.”

It should be noted that Herodotus, who was born in the 5th century BC, is also known as “the father of lies” and indeed some of his stories, such as on the man-sized desert ants of Persia, are just fables. He himself said that “my business is to record what people say, I’m by no means bound to believe it.” What furthermore speaks in his favor, is that no one believed his accounts of Amazons and a man-made canal between the Nile and the Red Sea, until archeologists proved both actually existed.

To the Greek historian the changed position of the sun in the southern hemisphere was just too much to believe. “It is precisely for that remark,” said Sadr, “that most scholars believe the story is probably true.”

Third, there’s the journey of Hanno, which stems from a Greek text of the 10th century AD. That’s a bit late for a trip that took place some 1,500 years earlier, yet what makes the text plausible are the incredible details described, which were not generally known in 1,000 AD. According to the text, which is said to be a translation from a much older Phoenician tablet, Hanno set sail from Carthage with 60 ships.
After sailing beyond the Pillars of Hercules, Hanno founded several cities on the coast of today’s Morocco. They passed a river called the Lixos, took translators aboard and sailed for days along a large desert coast until they reached a small island called Cerne, which was situated in the mouth of a large river.
According to Hanno, Cerne was as far from the Pillars as is Carthage.

Most scholars agree that the description fits Somalia, and several other texts confirm that the Phoenicians used to trade with Cerne. Sailing onto the river, Hanno and his men saw “mountains crowded with savages clad in skins of wild beasts” and reached a second big river “teeming with crocodiles and hippos.”

They returned to Cerne and sailed further south. Passing the coast, which is described as “mountainous, clad with trees and inhabited by Ethiopians” they reach a large bay where they went ashore. “By day we could see nothing but forest, but by night we saw many fires burning and we heard the sound of flutes and the beating cymbals and drums, and a great din of voices. Fear came upon us and our soothsayers bade us to leave.”

And so they did. Further south they reached a “fiery coast with great streams of fire and lava pouring down into the sea.” The dubbed the volcano “Chariot of the Gods” and continued their journey, till they reached another bay with an “island full of savages.”

“By far the greater number were women with shaggy bodies whom our interpreters called gorillas.” They were unable to catch any of the men, but caught three women, “who bit and mangled those who carried them off.” Hanno’s men decided to kill them and take but their skin to Carthage.

The lively description of the green African coast most probably refers to Cape Verde and Gambia, while the volcano can only be in Guinea or even Cameroon. Again, seeing the settlements in Morocco, and the many existing references to Cerne, most scholars believe the story is true. If so, the many Lebanese living in West Africa are perhaps but following in the footsteps of their ancie- nt ancestors.

Unfortunately, as both Tyre and Carthage were destroyed to the ground, the main sources of Phoenician civilization were forever lost to mankind. We can only imagine what our view of history would be, if the Greek and Romans had done a less thorough job. Some say, the Phoenicians also sailed to India and even reached America.
Now, the latter is most probably a bit too far-fetched, but fact is, that even if only half the stories above is true, the history and map of the world, both of which are predominantly European, may have to be reviewed considerably. So, the Street of Magelaen, named after the Portuguese explorer, south of the African continent may have to be called Phoenician Street.

" I see the Barber books argues for a relationship with the Celts, which would be very relevant to what we're discussing."

Yup, Victor Mair recruited Barber and her husband to go to China with him and do the 'textile' work. She said that the fabrics (textiles) were just like those at the Celtic site at Halstadt, Austria...same materials, same mfg technique, same weave and same pattern style. Some of the patterns are still in use in Scotland today.

Urumchi and Haldstadt are 4,000 miles and 1,000 years apart. Those two books are amazing. I've read each three times and still haven't absorbed all the info.

""A major debate has been raging since 1987 over the absolute date of the great volcanic explosion of the island of Thera/Santorini early in the Late Bronze Age."

It was 1628BC...The same time as the Bibical Exodus.

Professor Mike Baillie (dendrochronologist) does an excellent job of dating that eruption by used tree-rings worldwide in his excellent book, Exodus To Arthur

Urumchi and Haldstadt are 4,000 miles and 1,000 years apart. Those two books are amazing. I've read each three times and still haven't absorbed all the info.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who feels that way after reading all this stuff--sometimes it makes my head spin trying to absorb it all! :) Yeah, that does sound pretty amazing if they've got evidence of Halstadt-type textiles in ancient China. Do you remember offhand from reading the book, was there any iron technology found with that or was it just copper/bronze? I have a working theory that C.J. Thomsen's assumption of a single linear bronze/iron transition has put somewhat of a straitjacket on historical models of ancient technological development, so I'd be curious if Barber's find sheds any light on that, given Halstadt's significance in the bronze/iron transition in Europe.

It was 1628BC...The same time as the Bibical Exodus.

Professor Mike Baillie (dendrochronologist) does an excellent job of dating that eruption by used tree-rings worldwide in his excellent book, Exodus To Arthur

Thanks! I will add that to my reading list. One reason I got into this whole area was because I was following the controversy over the date of the Exodus generated by the work of John Bimson--for those seeking more information on this, good summary about halfway down the page here:

Evidence for the Early Date of the Exodus

Also see:

The Date of the Exodus: Introduction to the Competing Theories

[ANENews] Conference: Exodus and Conquest: Myth or Reality?

"Do you remember offhand from reading the book, was there any iron technology found with that or was it just copper/bronze?"

This was covered in Mair's (large )book. It covers the bronze age right into the present age.

I have managed to connect the Hakka Chinese (who migrated all the way across China) to the Xiongnu group. The early (Caucasian) Xiongnu, Saka, Yuezhi and other groups were related to the same group as the 'red-headed mummy.' People today do not even realize how many Caucasian people were once in China. There are many poems in Chinese lamenting the green eyes of the Han Dynasty emperors.

Thanks, good stuff! As I started reading this it made me start thinking about possible relationships to the Japanese and the Huns, who I notice are covered further down the page. Will take me a while to absorb this. . .Also gets me thinking about the fact that Caucasian characterstics are found among certain American Indian tribes. What I'd really like to see is all this stuff we're discussing laid out in historical atlas form so a cross-cultural analysis over time can be done to identify patterns of migration and cultural exchange.

The Phoenicians were also able to make the Kessel Run in less than 12 parsecs. Not their local bulk cruisers, mind you, I'm talking about the big Corellian ships now.

No way! That's even faster than the Star Destroyers!

Wasn't there a theory around that the Celts, Germanics and Scyths were originally one group that split? These would be the proto-Celts (for convenience sake) who were themselves derived from the main Indo-European branch.

The Scyths did invade the Crimea around the time whne the Greeks set up their trading posts there. They also moved into western india and the Rajput warrior clans are supposed to be descended from them.

If you consider warpaint and other characteristics the Red indians of North America look strangely like the Mizos and Assamese tribes of North Eastern India.

Interesting! What are their origins believed to be?

There's a recent discussion of that theory here:

Peter S. Wells, Beyond Celts, Germans, and Scythians: Archaeology and Identity in Iron Age Europe

Also see:

Helen Litton, The Celts: An Illustrated History

Origin of the Celts

From what I've read so far--and I'm still working through the literature on this--it seems like the precise way to define the relationship between the Scythians, Germans, and Celts is an unresolved issue, though they do seem to be closely related in some way.

Was the picture you posted in your other post an example of an Indian Rajput warrior?

Okay, I just bounced this picture off my Tibetan Buddhist friend:

His opinion (as I interpret it--hard to get information out of him sometimes, he likes to sound mysterious so he's inclined to avoid answering questions directly and speak in koans instead, LOL!) was that it could be Yoga but it's inconclusive without more evidence about the distribution of that type of sitting posture and the meaning of the hand gestures. IMO there might be a stronger case if some of the other Olmec statues showing this type of seated figure display other hand postures that appear stylistic in a way similar to Yoga.

I was reading it as they went through the Pillars of Hercules, circumnavigated Africa to somewhat past Cerne/Ethiopia, and then went back the way they had come ("They returned to Cerne and sailed further south.") in small legs at port stops they had previously identified during the initial circumnavigation (I'm assuming), which is how they got back to Gambia/Cameroon.

How far did the Phonecians go?"

Well, if they got as far as San Francisco, they'ed have been able to go a lot further than they could have in Africa.

(Not that there's anything wrong that, ya know....)

"Sometimes spelled Hsiong-nu. Often associated with the Huns of European history. (The evidence allows but does not command the conclusion.)"

Yup, the Xiongnu are often called the white Huns. The Xiongnu intermarried with the Han and the later Hakka were a mixing of the two groups. During the centuries old Hakka migration to southern China, the Hakka with Caucasian features were slaughtered.

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