Was There a Trojan War?

Archaeology ^ | May/June 2004 | Manfred Korfmann

[SunkenCiv]

A spectacular result of the new excavations has been the verification of the existence of a lower settlement from the seventeenth to the early twelfth centuries B.C. (Troy levels VI/VIIa) outside and south and east of the citadel. As magnetometer surveys and seven excavations undertaken since 1993 have shown, this lower city was surrounded at least in the thirteenth century by an impressive U-shaped fortification ditch, approximately eleven and a half feet wide and six and a half feet deep, hewn into the limestone bedrock. Conclusions about the existence and quality of buildings within the confines of the ditch have been drawn on the basis of several trial trenches and excavations, some of them covering a very large surface area. The layout of the city was confirmed by an intensive and systematic pottery survey in 2003. We have also discovered a cemetery outside the ditch to the south. The most recent excavations have determined that Troy, which now covers about seventy-five acres, is about fifteen times larger than previously thought.

[SunkenCiv]

Please FREEPMAIL me if you want on or off the "Gods, Graves, Glyphs" PING list --
Archaeology/Anthropology/Ancient Cultures/Artifacts/Antiquities, etc.
The GGG Digest -- Gods, Graves, Glyphs (alpha order)

[GeronL]

interesting

[SunkenCiv]

Evidence from Homer
by Joachim Latacz

The Greek aggressors who attack Troy in the Iliad are called consistently "Achaiói" (which was in the Late Bronze Age "Achaiwói") or "Danaói," but at the time the Iliad was composed in the eighth century B.C., there were no such names for the Greek people. The "Achaiwói" of the Iliad must, therefore, be identical with the inhabitants of Ahhiyawa, a western kingdom implicated in Hittite documents of the fourteenth and thirteenth centuries B.C. in attacks on the western Anatolian coast. (The "Danaói" of the Iliad, on the other hand, must be identical with the inhabitants of "Danaya," a northern kingdom described in Egyptian documents of the fourteenth century B.C.)... Homer's Iliad has in all probability preserved remnants of the memory of one or more acts of aggression perpetrated by the Ahhiyawans against Wilusa in the thirteenth century B.C.

Evidence from Hittite Records
by J.D. Hawkins

The kingdom of Arzawa, located roughly in western Anatolia, was a threat to the Hittites throughout most of the fourteenth century B.C. but toward the end of that period was decisively defeated and broken up into provinces. The treaties concluded with the vassal rulers of these provinces are known among the Hittite texts. Recent inscription readings have allowed scholars to locate the two main Arzawa lands in the central-west part of Turkey, extending from the inland plateau to the coast. The recent recognition that another kingdom, which the Hittites referred to as the Lukka lands, occupied what is now southwest Turkey thus leaves only northwest Anatolia as yet-to-be-filled space on the Hittite map... What is now known of the geography of western Anatolia makes it clear that there could be no room on the mainland for the kingdom of Ahhiyawa. Furthermore, the references to the political interests of Ahhiyawa on the west coast mesh well with increasing archaeological evidence for Mycenaean Greeks in the area, so that it is now widely accepted that "Ahhiyawa" is indeed the Hittite designation for this culture.

Please FREEPMAIL me if you want on or off the "Gods, Graves, Glyphs" PING list --
Archaeology/Anthropology/Ancient Cultures/Artifacts/Antiquities, etc.
The GGG Digest -- Gods, Graves, Glyphs (alpha order)

[SunkenCiv]

Thanks!

[SunkenCiv]

This is the series on which the book was based (not the other way around), and it's on DVD at last:

---

In Search of the Trojan War by Michael Wood

---

[SunkenCiv]

The Fact and Fiction Surrounding the
4000 Year Old Ancient City
Turkish Embassy

Troy existed more than 4000 years as the center of ancient civilization. For many years, it was commonly believed that Troy was a myth, the product of fertile imaginations such as Homer’s, who made Hector, Helen, Achilles, Paris, Agamemnon and Priam so famous. That changed in 1822, when the city’s remains were discovered by Charles Mclaren.

A History of Ancient Greece
by Lewis Jewsbury
Ragz International
1992

In 1822 Charles McLaren suggested that this was the site of Homeric Troy, but for the next 50 years his suggestion received little attention from classical scholars, most of whom regarded the Trojan legend as a mere fictional creation based on myth, not history. The German archaeologist Heinrich Schliemann deserves full credit for adopting McLaren's identification and demonstrating to the world that it was correct.

Calvert first told Schliemann about it. For example:

The Future of the Past: Archaeology in the 21st Century by Eberhard Zangger

Schliemann... did not discover Troy either. During his visit to the region, he did search for the remains of the ancient city, but in the wrong place; in fact, precisely where the majority of people at that time expecte Troy to be. Schliemann was about to leave the area empty-handed, but he missed his steamer. While he was waiting, he met the British consul for the area, Frank Calvert. Calvert told him about the theory of a Scottish geologist called Charles MacLaren, who maintained that Troy lay on a hill called Hisarlik. Calvert, who, by chance, happened to own part of this hill... After talking to Calvert, Schliemann left the Troas without, apparently, even having seen the Hisarlik mound. [pp 17-18]

[SunkenCiv]

[SunkenCiv]

Ein neuer Kampf um Troia: Archäologie in der Krise
reviewed by Edmund F. Bloedow
Bryn Mawr Classical Review 95.02.18
Ein neuer Kampf um Troia: Archäologie in der Krise by Eberhard Zangger

In such a wide-ranging study, however, one can scarcely expect one individual to be able to assess all the primary evidence. Indeed, it soon becomes evident that Z.'s conclusions are based almost exclusively on secondary, and at times even tertiary, sources. And by casting his net very wide, he hauls in a multifarious medley, whose quality varies enormously. For instance, he brings to the debate for the first time, in particular, Plato's Timaeus and Critias, as well as Dictys Cretensis and Dares Phrygius, and other Mediaeval Homeric 'romances' (68-74). For Z., the accounts of the Sea Peoples, contemporary documents, the Homeric epics, ancient authors, legends, extra-Homeric literature, all compete essentially on a level playing field: broadly speaking, they can all be approached as "half true and half untrue" (74-75).

[SunkenCiv]

The Trojan War Era
Jorn Barger
October 2001 (revised Dec2002)
http://www.robotwisdom.com/science/troy.html

[SunkenCiv]

bttt with a few related GGG / FR topics:

Amazon Warrior Women
PBS ^ | Current | PBS
Posted on 08/04/2004 8:51:53 PM PDT by blam
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1185293/posts

The Argonaut Epos and Bronze Age Economic History
Economics Department, City College of New York
Revised May 14, 1999 | Morris Silver
Posted on 08/25/2004 10:30:51 PM PDT by SunkenCiv
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/1199756/posts

Inscription in Carian and Greek
Anistoriton ^ | 27 Dec. 1997 | (editors)
Posted on 07/17/2004 6:20:07 PM PDT by SunkenCiv
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/1173453/posts?page=10#10

Non-Attic Characters
University of California, Irvine, Thesaurus Linguae Graecae
September 7 2003 (rev 9-28-2003) | Nick Nicholas
Posted on 07/18/2004 6:43:19 PM PDT by SunkenCiv
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1173901/posts

So Who Is Buried in Midas's Tomb?
NYT ^ | 12/25/2001 | JOHN NOBLE WILFORD
Posted on 12/24/2001 10:12:01 PM PST by a_Turk
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/596541/posts

The Truth About An Epic Tale Of Love, War And Greed (Troy)
The Telegraph (UK) ^ | 3-24-2004
Posted on 03/25/2004 12:03:11 PM PST by blam
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1105131/posts

[SunkenCiv]

February bump.

ANE Digest Number 357
From: Banyai Michael Leonberg
Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1998

There is an Akagamunas (Akaiamunas?), apparently the Achaian king, appearing in the hethite correspondence. He was tentatively equivalated, I think by Forrer, with the homeric Agamemnon. Most of Forrers equation are today in low esteem, even if his name is still among the leader hethitologists. There are no objective grounds against this very equation but only natural skepsis. Should one hold his equation, one gets Akaiamunas/Akaiamenon >> Agamemnon. This as Idomeneos and Menelaos (variant of the lawagetas) would thus be just titles, no personal names.

more about these affinities, dating back to the 1920s or 1930s, to be found recounted in Michael Wood's book and the old BBC series.

[blam]

Current events again? (LOL)

[SunkenCiv]

I do wonder why the historicity of some of the characters used by Homer should generate such resistance in certain quarters. But hey...

---

---

[SunkenCiv]

Barger's vanished site, courtesy the Wayback Machine

[Cronos]

I wonder about the similarity between the TRojan war and the other, older, ARyanic epic, the Mahabharata.

[SunkenCiv]

Professor Schliemann had already begun to suspect that the stories of the Trojan War were limned upon an Atlantean background. While excavating in Troy he had found, in the treasure house of Priam, an exquisitely wrought bronze vase bearing the inscription: From King Chronos [no relation] of Atlantis. Ten years later, while wandering through the Louvre in Paris, he came across its mate, which had come to light in Tiahuanaca, on the South American continent. If, before he died in 1890, this intuitive man had been fortunate enough to read Isis Unveiled and The Secret Doctrine, he might have learned that the Trojan War coincided with the cycle of events described in the Mahabharata, and that Homer's Iliad was but a copy of the Ramayana.

But seriously... I don't see it. While I don't reject the idea that the Mahabharata records (in its way) a real war of some duration, it was geographically and temporally in a very different place. The Trojan War has had its setting changed by different modern writers, including Edo Nyland's (borrowed) idea that it took place in the Scottish archipelago.

[SunkenCiv]

more related...

The Mahabharata: A Family Chart
by Gloria L. Floren
MiraCosta College

BHARATA: from "Bharat"=Indian; King Bharata. KRISHNA: Avatar of Vishnu, god of preservation who takes on human form when chaos threatens; serves as charioteer for Arjuna and delivers the Bhagavad Gita. SHIVA: God of destruction (also creation and preservation); provides the ultimate weapon to Arjuna. GANESHA: elephant-headed Hindu god of education and learning, knowledge and wisdom, literature and the fine arts, Lord of success, prosperity, and peace. and "good luck"; scribe for the Mahabharata, recited by Vyasa: "Listen to stories: It’s always pleasant and sometimes it improves you." VYASA: Krishna Dvaipaiyana Vyasa, 4th century B.C.E. Written text attributed to him. (Vyasa means "collector.") According to legend, Vyasa and Ganesha worked together to get the text fully recited and written down; the epic is said to have been originally written with a tusk. HISTORY: The events (the war) in the epic is based on a historical event, just as the Iliad portrays an actual war (Trojan War). The date of the Bharata war has been variously set at 5000 BCE, 3000 BCE, 3138 BCE (the Indus Valley Civilization dates are c. 3200-2000 BCE). ORAL TRADITION: It is believed that all the ancient stories, songs, and epics were preserved through recitation, performance, storytelling (in the oral tradition) before the technology of writing was invented.

---

FR Lexicon·Posting Guidelines·Excerpt, or Link only?·Ultimate Sidebar Management·Headlines
Donate Here By Secure Server·Eating our own -- Time to make a new start in Free Republic
PDF to HTML translation·Translation page·Wayback Machine·My Links·FreeMail Me
Gods, Graves, Glyphs topic·and group·Books, Magazines, Movies, Music

---

[Cronos]

I dunnno -- both epics were written down centuries, maybe millenia after they actually occured. The geographical location could have REALLY been anywhere and the combatants anyone. Just an epic battle -- the strange similarities

[SunkenCiv]

just a bump, with a title I found while looking for something else related to the Trojan War:

---

Collapse Of The Bronze Age by Manuel Robbins homepage

---

(I haven't looked into this title, dunno what the author's take is)

[SunkenCiv]

Russia displays art seized from Germany
by United Press International
Published May 17, 2005
http://www.wpherald.com/storyview.php?StoryID=20050517-040317-6544r