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Question for FREEPER's About Single Action Revolvers
n/a | 12/3/2021 | selg

Posted on 12/03/2021 12:33:12 PM PST by budj

Baldwin said he pulled the hammer back and released it and the pistol fired without pulling the trigger. The pistol was a replica Pietta, but we don't know now if it had a transfer bar. Assume it doesn't.

Has anyone here ever had that happen, or have known that it happened?


TOPICS: Hobbies; Miscellaneous; Science; Weird Stuff
KEYWORDS: 2ndamendment; alecbaldwin; banglist; halynahutchins; joelsouza; nra; revolvers; rust; secondamendment; singleaction; vanity
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To: Scrambler Bob

Looking at the schematic didn’t make that clear, there must be more to it.


61 posted on 12/03/2021 2:58:18 PM PST by Tijeras_Slim
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To: BereanBrain

“Thus the term “Drop the hammer!””

Precisely! the end of the hammer is the “firing pin” (akin to center fire shells) for rim fire ammunition. The ‘trigger’ is only there to be cocked/held in a potential spring loaded firing position, kinetic when pulled and fired.

i’m not familiar with what cycles the cylinder for the next round though, maybe the trigger has something to do with that...


62 posted on 12/03/2021 2:58:28 PM PST by apostoli (“Violence has no place...” Then stop re-naming our streets after people that burn down cities!)
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To: SkyDancer
Should have been “note.” When the hammer is released, the firing pin travels through the plane of the primer and bounces back to the start of the cocking/ firing sequence. . The Hickok 45 video may help.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ldHPNnsp-cs

63 posted on 12/03/2021 2:59:52 PM PST by gundog ( It was a bright cold day in April, and the clocks were striking thirteen. )
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To: Paal Gulli

Well stated... at any rate, at trial the prosecution will have all the mechanics of that exact weapon for the jury to see.


64 posted on 12/03/2021 3:01:16 PM PST by apostoli (“Violence has no place...” Then stop re-naming our streets after people that burn down cities!)
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To: coloradan

He must have that one-of-a-kind version with a fan fire selector. Or maybe the trigger was taped.


65 posted on 12/03/2021 3:03:23 PM PST by mcshot (OMG! Really? WTF! I don't think we're OK. Is that the drain I see? Oh noes!)
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To: Scrambler Bob

66 posted on 12/03/2021 3:06:25 PM PST by Tijeras_Slim
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To: atc23

“Is it confirmed that the weapon wasn’t a Colt Thunderer clone?”
Yes. It was a Pietta reproduction of a Model 1873 Colt Single Action Army.


67 posted on 12/03/2021 3:10:03 PM PST by Pythion.net
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To: A Navy Vet

I read they frequently took breaks and fired live rounds behind the set.


68 posted on 12/03/2021 3:17:32 PM PST by gitmo (If your theology doesn't become your biography, what good is it?)
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To: fruser1
"If you don’t pull it back far enough to lock in place, the hammer will drop."

But unless the half cock sear is broken or worn, it will fall to the half cock position. The half cock is needed for loading because the Single Action Army (and reproductions) are loaded by putting the hammer on half cock which allows the cylinder to spin freely.

A Single Action Army on half cock:


69 posted on 12/03/2021 3:19:52 PM PST by Pythion.net
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To: Magnum44

GLAD TO SEE YOU.

THANKS.

I’VE SENT YOU A PRIVATE REPLY.

KEEP THE FAITH.


70 posted on 12/03/2021 3:24:42 PM PST by TigerHawk (The Raised Middle Finger in the Clenched Fist of the World)
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To: apostoli

“i’m not familiar with what cycles the cylinder for the next round though, maybe the trigger has something to do with that...”

In Scrambler Bob’s schematic, part #7 is called the “hand” which is attached to the hammer and pushes up on a ratchet on the back of the cylinder when the hammer is cocked.


71 posted on 12/03/2021 3:26:45 PM PST by Pythion.net
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To: Tijeras_Slim

I have touched transfer bar pistols.

And maybe taken a few of them apart.

The hammer can only fall so far before it stops; it hits against the frame. The hammer has no firing pin on it (like original Colts did).

The transfer bar, if present, fills in the gap between the flat-faced hammer and the firing pin (which is located in the frame).

So, if the transfer bar is gone, the hammer stops, no transfer bar to fill in the gap to the firing pin, and there would be only a loud ‘snap’.

Not a crying, whining voice ‘i did not touch the trigger’.

The trigger, when pulled, raises the transfer bar to fill the gap, on pistols so equipped.

Does this help?


72 posted on 12/03/2021 3:27:28 PM PST by Scrambler Bob (My /s is more true than your /science (or you might mean /seance))
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To: Scrambler Bob

I’m most familiar with S&W and their hammer block. But I have been in the innards of Ruger Vaqueros and 3 screw Blackhawks.


73 posted on 12/03/2021 3:35:04 PM PST by Tijeras_Slim
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To: Raven6

Re careless: sounds the most plausible …

But WHY was there a live round in the gun to begin with is the real question.


74 posted on 12/03/2021 3:42:41 PM PST by NFHale (The Second Amendment - By Any Means Necessary.She was, indeed, a hottie… Rest in peace, Joanne.)
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To: A Navy Vet

Im in agreement with you and I think that all of those carrying on about his personal responsibility are actually making his defense easier.

Im not sure that he is responsible as Alec the actor, I am sure that he should be responsible as Alec the producer.

No professional metal worker would ever call me competent but Im pretty sure I could come up with a facsimile that appears to fire but was incapable of chambering a round. There is no reason to have a real firearm on a movie set. The fact that many have done so in the past has no bearing on the present. Its entirely unnecessary today.

We dont smash people on the head with real bottles. We shouldnt put someones head in a real guillotine and almost chop it off. We shouldnt actually blow up aircraft with people inside. We shouldnt allow dickweeds with giant egos and no experience in real life to touch working firearms.

Actors are, well, actors. They should never be confused with people that have any real skills. The entire environment that the actor preforms in should be designed as though everyone acting on the set has profound mental deficiencies because many of them do. Anything with any degree of real danger using any live equipment (artillery, bandsaws, explosives, etc) should be done by a real professional.

Yes, there are some that do their own stunts. Fine. It should all be spelled out in the contract what their responsibility is and they should have proof that they have been properly trained by a competent professional and they should only be allowed to endanger themselves.

Alec the producer was responsible for the loss of the primary armorer, he rented someone from Armorers-R-Us, he allowed real firearms in a land of fantasy.


75 posted on 12/03/2021 4:06:35 PM PST by gnarledmaw (Hive minded liberals worship leaders, sovereign conservatives elect servants.)
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To: budj

“...possible, but improbable.” [referring to hammer fall without trigger pull] [budj, post 1]

“...the cowboys in the old movies used to just fan the hammer for rapid fire.” [KTM rider, post 3]

“Trigger must be pulled” [dirtymac, post 9]

“On a single action revolver if you have the trigger pulled back and you pull back the hammer and then release it the gun will fire....” [bruoz, post 11]

“Fanning ...trigger must be held back in the firing position

and many times the gun exploded” [dirtymac, post 14]

“...The half-cock sear notch was broken off of the trigger assembly (which can happen, and is the origin of the phrase ‘don’t go off half-cocked’)...” [one of three possibilities noted by Yo-Yo, post 14]

“...(1) He didn’t pull the hammer back far enough to engage the sear (lock) (2) A defective or worn sear might not hold the hammer. ...Gun parts, including safties, are mechanical devices, and can fail. ...” [Fido969, post 19]

Wouldn’t you have to pull the hammer back until it hits a ‘click’ that holds the hammer back?...” [SkyDancer, post 27]

“Have to pull the hammer all the way back for the cylinder to fully rotate to the next cartridge and go into full battery. The hammer won’t fall unless the trigger is pulled.” [Roklok, post 30]

“...I’ve also read where the trigger sear can get worn after use even if the “click” happens at half-cocked. ...” [A Navy Vet, post 37]

“Note the over-travel of the hammer under momentum, and that it returns to a spot slightly back from where it begins the cycle.” [gundog, post 52]

“...I have a single action Italian reproduction Colt 1851... If I pull the hammer back and release it prematurely then the cylinder DOES NOT ROLL BACK...” [central_va, post 57]

“...When in the half-cock position, pulling the trigger alone does exactly nothing except make your finger tired...If by some act of divine intervention the hammer were to fall from the fully-cocked position, and if the trigger wasn’t at that instant being pressed, the hammer should have caught on the half-cock...” [Paal Gulli, post 59]


Great series of comments and queries.

We all need more information on metallurgy and parts fitting, and tolerances.

Colt’s Single Action Army (and most replicas) don’t have a separate sear. The upper tip of the trigger engages the full cock notch on the hammer directly. These parts are very small and delicate; subject to the great forces imposed by springs, they endure tremendous stresses and unless made of quality material, properly tempered and fitted, they can wear to the point of being unsafe. Many owners modify them to get “better” trigger pull feel without regard to safety.

The Single Action Army actually has three notches in the hammer: from first to last while thumbing back the hammer, they are: (1) safety, (2) loading, (3) full cock. 1 and 2 are undercut so the hammer must be manually moved to disengage: a natural consequence when one thumbs the hammer all the way to full cock. (the loading notch depresses the bolt so the cylinder can be manually rotated (forward) to load chambers).

If the hammer is allowed to fall from full cock, its momentum at impact can fracture the trigger tip if the trigger is not being pulled deliberately. It’s also possible to physically pull the trigger with enough force to break off the forward portion of the safety notch or the loading notch; the arm is not at all safe to use and results cannot be predicted.

I’ve repaired dozens of revolvers, single action and double action, made by many different firms. All cylinders can roll backwards if the parts are improperly fitted or worn beyond the point of safe use. Revolver timing is an art best learned from properly qualified and trained technicians.

Consult the late Elmer Keith’s book “Sixguns.” Among many other things, he wrote about slip-hammer single actions, used by some gunslingers and law enforcement personnel in the day. Triggers were removed and the hammer spurs were altered to allow the thumb of the gun-holding hand to hold back the hammer until firing was required. Improved reliability considerably.

Not sure where gundog obtained the link to the vid he posted in his Post 52. But it errs in depicting the Colt’s Single Action hammer movement. Rebound is not a design element and no P frame hammer rebounds unless improperly fitted or worn. Rebound is, however, a feature on numerous double action designs, from the late 19th century to the present day: Colt’s, S&W, the British Webley revolvers of international fame.

Worn half-cock notches were a real hazard before metallurgy improved. The lock parts on muskets issued during the American War of Independence would sometimes wear past the point of safe operation, reinforcing the truth of the phrase “going off half-cocked,” already known. General Washington issued written order that troops must use frizzen covers: small leather sleeves that cover the striking surface of the pan cover or frizzen. That way, if the sear or tumbler failed, or engaged improperly, the flint would hit the leather instead of sparking on hitting steel.


76 posted on 12/03/2021 4:09:36 PM PST by schurmann (quence)
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To: broken_clock; atc23

The Old West,
I love It!
Today I found out I’m near
The Gravesite of
“Big Nose Kate” and
It can’t get much Better!


77 posted on 12/03/2021 4:10:14 PM PST by Big Red Badger (Make His Paths Straight!)
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To: A Navy Vet

It sounds like a cascade of failures - a most catastrophes are.

Sure the armorer may be negligent, but Baldwin should have cleared the firearm. He said they were just lining up the angles for the scene or something and no trigger pulls were planned.


78 posted on 12/03/2021 4:20:36 PM PST by 13foxtrot
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To: budj
Video showing the intricate workings of a the hammer on a typical single action revolver:

https://thegunfeed.com/cnn-definitively-proves-alec-baldwin-is-lying-about-not-pulling-the-trigger/

The headline on this page is being a bit optimistic. It doesn't "prove" Baldwin was lying but it does clearly demonstrate that his account ignores some indisputable facts, and that barring some (unexpected) discovery regarding the functionality of the firearm's safety provisions, Alec did it all by his lonesome.

79 posted on 12/03/2021 4:27:24 PM PST by Paal Gulli
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To: Paladin2

Excellent video and it could be the Baldwin defense. But it may not be what really happened and this narrative, no doubt rehearsed with a lawyer and gun expert, is just trying to get him out of a criminal verdict if it goes before a jury. Now pointing the gun at the cinematographer is another issue altogether.


80 posted on 12/03/2021 4:37:18 PM PST by CedarDave (Pfizer's boosters: You just turned your immune system's functionality into a subscription service!)
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