Posted on 12/03/2021 12:33:12 PM PST by budj
Baldwin said he pulled the hammer back and released it and the pistol fired without pulling the trigger. The pistol was a replica Pietta, but we don't know now if it had a transfer bar. Assume it doesn't.
Has anyone here ever had that happen, or have known that it happened?
Yes, but if you don't bring to even half cock and the hammer slips out of thumb, cylinder reverses. There should never have been even blank in that aligned cylinder, much less a live round.
I despise Baldwin, but this is on the armorer.
“...who was holding/playing with the gun? Who was pointing at people? Who broke every single firearm safety protocol there is? THAT is the person responsible...Alex Baldwin.” [lgjhn23, post 4]
Agree absolutely and totally. From what I’ve heard, movie sets are notoriously crowded with people who never learned the basic safety/handling rules, or who flippantly ignore them.
To delve a bit deeper into single action quirks -
Almost all single action replicas are based on Colt’s Single Action Army (P frame, military Model 1873 US Revolver), a notorious safety risk and very breakage-prone. It’s now universally recommended that users never load more than five round, and to keep the empty chamber under the hammer.
Lock parts (trigger, hammer, bolt) are small and quite breakage-prone. Often it’s possible to strike the hammer or drop the arm on its hammer spur, and if an unfired cartridge is under the hammer, looseness and the natural springiness will permit the firing pin tip (rigidly fixed to the hammer face) to bounce forward and ignite the primer. I personally met one individual who ignored the empty-chamber rule and shot himself in the rear end when he bumped the hammer of his holstered revolver against a really solid portion of his ATV.
A number of safety devices - some manual, some part-automatic - have been contrived to reduce the risk of negligent discharge, but it hasn’t been eliminated from these arms. Only a redesign of the lockwork can have much impact, such as the Ruger single action revolvers (New Model Blackhawk, Single Six,Single Seven, Single Ten etc).
And preferably pointing down at soft dirt. On an exposed firing pin as in old revolvers, owners can find even a soft touch against a touchy primer can be scary.
G-D HANDS YOU A FIREARM AND SWEARS TO YOU IT IS UNLOADED AND PERFECTLY SAFE. YOU IMMEDIATELY POINT THE MUZZLE IN A SAFE DIRECTION AND CONFIRM FOR YOURSELF THAT THE FIREARM IS UNLOADED AND SAFE. FAIL TO DO SO, INJURE OR KILL SOMEONE AS A RESULT, AND IT IS SOLELY YOUR FAULT! NOT THE FAULT OF THE FIREARM IN ANY WAY, NOR ANYTHING ELSE IN THIS WORLD!
AFTER YOU HAVE CONFIRMED THAT THE FIREARM IS EMPTY YOU PUT IT ON A TABLE, ASK G-D TO MAKE SURE NOBODY TOUCHES IT, GO TO THE TOILET, AND COME BACK.
THE VERY FIRST THING YOU DO IS CHECK THAT FIREARM AGAIN REGARDLESS THAT G-D TELLS YOU IT HASN’T BEEN TOUCHED!
IF YOU HAND G-D THE FIREARM AND SAY “HERE, IT’S EMPTY AND SAFE,” G-D, WHO KNOWS EVERYTHING!, WILL POINT THE MUZZLE IN A SAFE DIRECTION AND CONFIRM THAT FOR HIMSELF! ‘CAUSE G-D IS NOT AN ARROGANT A$$HOLE!
REGARDLESS OF THE MECHANICS AND FUNCTION OF THAT FIREARM ALEC BALDWIN IS SOLELY RESPONSIBLE FOR THE DEATH AND INJURY ON THAT SET. HIS DECLARATION THAT IT WAS NOT HIS FAULT ATTESTS TO THE PUTRID STATE OF HIS CHARACTER AND HIS ALLIGATOR TEARS CONFIRMS IT. HE’S AN ABOMINABLE ENTITY, SOULLESS AND AMORAL!
I HOPE HE’S MADE TO PAY IN FULL MEASURE.
DUH it’s the hammer dropping that makes it go boom!
Thus the term “Drop the hammer!”
Next, Baldwin will say “I didn’t think it had a clip in it, and it was not an assault rifle with 30 rounds so I thought it would be safe to play with it like a toy”
The wild card is the live ammo. Baldwin can be an idiot all day long, and nobody gets hurt.
“...Is it confirmed that the weapon wasn’t a Colt Thunderer clone?...” [atc23, post 26]
Colt’s M1877 (41 cal = “Thunderer,” 38 cal = “Lightning,” 32 cal nickname not in my memory; names bestowed by distributors) Double Action contains lockwork entirely different from their Single Action Army.
They are rather delicate and troublesome to repair. The last one came of the production line in 1912 and no major ammunition company loads any of the three calibers today. They have become ever-pricier collectors’ items and it’s most unlikely one would appear as a movie set prop.
No replicas have been made, to my knowledge; some Single Action replicas/clones have been fitted with altered grip frames that resemble the original M1877 grip shape - a bird’s head style with a spur behind the hammer to brace against one’s thumb/index finger web while cycling using only the trigger.
He was pointing it at the camera so the cinematographer could see what was in the shot. Apparently she wanted to catch the hammer being cocked. I don’t think Baldwin necessarily hits precisely what he’s aiming at.
Nite the over-travel of the hammer under momentum, and that it returns to a spot slightly back from where it begins the cycle.
Very true. Which brings us right back to the armorer, and where the live round came from.
Sorry, I don't understand what you posted.
Bigger question:
How does one release the hammer without fingering the trigger?
On my revolvers (as well as my levers), you have to gently squeeze the trigger to ‘unlock’ the hammer and return it to ‘safety’ position.
Baldwin is stupid.
I have a single action Italian reproduction Colt 1851 ( it has the half cock feature ). If I pull the hammer back and release it prematurely then the cylinder DOES NOT ROLL BACK. repeat: the cylinder DOES NOT ROLL BACK. I just tried it many times.
If the transfer bar is gone, how does the hammer touch the firing pin?
Which is precisely why it has been used for so long on firearms that require a lot of manual manipulation during the loading process. It dramatically reduces the potential for accidentally shooting yourself if you should bump the trigger while you're playing grab-ass with the gun.
This is where I point out that some "gunslingers" of the Old West would use a bit of bailing wire to keep the trigger permanently pulled against the back of the trigger guard to facilitate "fanning" the hammer. There's nothing preventing you drawing the gun and pulling the trigger in the customary fashion and fanning the hammer (which is actually more just pre-loading the trigger, because it can't move rearward when the hammer is still down), but the more devil-may-care short-circuited the process by wiring back the trigger, which also disabled the half-cock safety.
Baldwin admits he cocked the revolver. If by some act of divine intervention the hammer were to fall from the fully-cocked position, and if the trigger wasn't at that instant being pressed, the hammer should have caught on the half-cock.
It shouldn't have gone off.
I wouldn't expect Baldwin to know that's how they operate because it is an emblem of faith among those of his ilk to remain willfully ignorant of firearms, but he's damned himself with his own words.
Unless the gun is defective or was tampered with. And even if that were the case, he never should have touched the firearm without confirming whether it was loaded, nor should he have pointed it at something he didn't intend to destroy. And since he was handling this firearm in a professional capacity, that makes at the very least negligent.
That said, since this was a homicide I think it's safe to presume that the firearm is already is in police custody and their firearms expert already will have examined it. If there were a problem with the half-cock or the transfer bar (presuming there is one), we already would have heard of it.
Bottom line, unless something was found amiss with the revolver, Baldwin pointed a loaded gun at someone and pulled the trigger, period, end of story.
In reality, it depends on a lot of things, which many folks offering opinions never bother to specify. Is the revolver new or used? Who manufactured it? Is it in good repair, or worn, or possibly even broken? Does it contain any non-factory, or out-of-spec factory parts? Has a gunsmith ever modified or repaired the firearm, and was the gunsmith qualified to do so? Has the firearm always been used with factory ammo? If reloads were ever used, were they assembled based on published data? Is the ammunition being used appropriate? What's the 'round count' for the firearm? Etc., etc., etc.
Most of the opinions you see posted seem to based on the assumption that the firearm is either new, or used but in good repair. Why? Because those are the kind of firearms many gun owners have the most experience with.
Over the past several decades, I've encountered two firearms that would fire under certain circumstances, without the trigger being touched by the person holding the firearm. One was brand new, and the other was used, but seemingly in good repair. One of them was (coincidentally) a single action revolver...
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