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Ancient Germans weren't so fair
Australian Broadcasting Corporation ^ | Friday, 16 July 2004 | Anna Salleh

Posted on 07/17/2004 7:07:03 PM PDT by SunkenCiv

Researchers may be able to make more accurate reconstructions of what ancient humans looked like with the first ever use of ancient DNA to determine hair and skin colour from skeletal remains.... German anthropologist, Dr Diane Schmidt of the University of Göttingen... said her research may also help to identify modern day murderers and their victims... In research for her recently completed PhD, Schmidt built on research from the fields of dermatology and skin cancer that have found genetic markers for traits such as skin and hair colour in modern humans... She extracted DNA from ancient human bones as old as 3000 years old from three different locations in Germany and looked for these SNPs. Her findings suggest that red hair and fair skin was very uncommon among ancient Germans. Out of a total of 26 people analysed, Schmidt found only one person with red hair and fair skin, a man from the Middle Ages. All the other people had more UV-tolerant skin that tans easily.

(Excerpt) Read more at abc.net.au ...


TOPICS: Books/Literature; Reference; Religion; Science; Weird Stuff
KEYWORDS: ancientautopsies; archaeology; germans; germany; ggg; godsgravesglyphs; helixmakemineadouble; paleontology; romanempire; romans
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To: nmh
Yeah, that sounded like PR to me too.
21 posted on 07/18/2004 7:14:24 AM PDT by SunkenCiv (Unlike some people, I have a profile. Okay, maybe it's a little large...)
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To: hershey
My great-grandfather (same surname) went bald, but his hair was dark, apart from his red beard. Shiver me timbers.
22 posted on 07/18/2004 7:16:04 AM PDT by SunkenCiv (Unlike some people, I have a profile. Okay, maybe it's a little large...)
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To: blam
I'll show ya... okay, wade in, the water temperature will feel fine in a minute... okay... yeah, I hate getting past my belly too... okay, pinch your nose with one hand if you need to... (bubbling noises)
23 posted on 07/18/2004 7:17:22 AM PDT by SunkenCiv (Unlike some people, I have a profile. Okay, maybe it's a little large...)
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To: ValerieUSA
Stop, you're distracting me... Years ago I read that there's a unique gene for red hair, whereas all other hair color are merely shades of the standard hair color gene (matter of degree, not of quality). C'mon, lemme touch it...
24 posted on 07/18/2004 7:20:06 AM PDT by SunkenCiv (Unlike some people, I have a profile. Okay, maybe it's a little large...)
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To: Wilhelm Tell
If I am not mistaken, red hair is a sign of the original Celtic people who once lived in most of Europe. I suppose if the ancient Germanic people originated in central Asia, then they probably did not have blond hair and blue eyes!
The Celts were likewise not original to Europe. The remains of what we now consider Europeans can be found in Central Asia, which appears to have provided all the migrants to Europe, India, the Middle East, and to some extent China, for at least 5000 years. As Blam noted, there's plenty of red hair in Libya, but that's because of the blue-eyed, fair-haired nomadic people (generally all the nomads are called Bedouins, but...).

Seagoing folks of various ethnic drifts from NW and N Europe were all over the place long before Leif Erickson, but it's also reasonable to conclude that there's not a lot to recommend natural selection as an explanation for anything. The fair-haired have always been around, and the nomads probably also came out of Central Asia.

25 posted on 07/18/2004 7:26:38 AM PDT by SunkenCiv (Unlike some people, I have a profile. Okay, maybe it's a little large...)
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To: SunkenCiv; Wilhelm Tell; ValerieUSA
"The Celts were likewise not original to Europe. The remains of what we now consider Europeans can be found in Central Asia, which appears to have provided all the migrants to Europe, India, the Middle East, and to some extent China, for at least 5000 years."

I'm working on an idea that will place the original red-headed folks (and maybe all Europeans/Caucasoids) at Sundaland during the last Ice Age.

Sundaland is an area around Indonesia (the size of present day India) that went underwater at the end of the Ice Age. These folks may have taken their habit of building megalithic and pyramid structures around the world when they became refugees. They probably came in at least three different waves at approximately 14,000, 11,500 and 8,000 years ago.

The oldest Jomon/Ainu skeleton ever found in Japan is 13,000 years old.

26 posted on 07/18/2004 9:05:56 AM PDT by blam
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To: Junior

"The reconstruction of the murder victim from skeletal remains will be more accurate now, helping to identify that person. DNA left at a crime scene can give forensic scientists a clue as to the perps skin color and hair color, helping them to identify him."

The real answer is yes and no. Skull shapes do help determine race and from there you can guess at hair coloring and eyes etc.. DNA is helpful provided it is not degraded. If the crime if ancient any of this information is worthless since you have no database to draw from and both would be dead by now.

In forensic science we often have a DNA profile however no one to match it up to so it doesn't really "identify" the perp or the victim UNLESS you have something to match it to.


27 posted on 07/18/2004 10:43:43 AM PDT by nmh (Intelligent people recognize Intelligent Design (God).)
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To: SunkenCiv
She is identifying as German those who lived in the geographical bounds of modern Germany. Read history a little and know that "Germans" came east from somewhere into Europe in great waves just a little A.D. That 3 thousand year old bag of bones is simply irrelevant to what Germans looked like.
28 posted on 07/18/2004 5:12:05 PM PDT by ThanhPhero (Ong la nguoi di hanh huong den La Vang)
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To: ThanhPhero
Read history a little? Yeah, thanks for the advice. The Germans described in (for example) "Commentaries on the Gallic Wars" later wound up known to us as the Franks, basically pushing into the Gallic (Celtic) areas after the Roman genocide (for an anachronistic term) of the Gauls.
29 posted on 07/18/2004 6:05:32 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (Unlike some people, I have a profile. Okay, maybe it's a little large...)
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To: SunkenCiv

I was replying to th eitem posted. I was surprised that a "scientist" would make such a statement. It would be like saying that Americans weren't always primarily caucasian but that their ancestors were mongoloid.


30 posted on 07/19/2004 6:20:36 PM PDT by ThanhPhero (Ong la nguoi di hanh huong den La Vang)
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To: blam

The incidence of red hair in Du Quoin is probably far higher than it is in Lybia or Ireland. Actually I have seen studies suggesting that the Berbers and the Scandinavians come from the same stock. The Berbers are NOT Semitic and are the pre Islam population of North Africa.


31 posted on 07/19/2004 6:24:06 PM PDT by ThanhPhero (Ong la nguoi di hanh huong den La Vang)
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To: ThanhPhero
"Actually I have seen studies suggesting that the Berbers and the Scandinavians come from the same stock."

I read some suggestions along that line too.

32 posted on 07/19/2004 6:28:59 PM PDT by blam
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To: SunkenCiv
What's interesting is that Germans and Iranians come from the same tribe - the Aryans.

In fact, the name Iran means "Land of the Aryans". In parts of Iran there's lots of light hair and eyes, but the majority have light to olive skin tone with dark hair and eyes. Although the facial structure is more european than middle eastern.

Nevertheless, the difference in appearance is fairly wide between the two. I guess generations of war, and devastation in the Persian Empire didn't exactly help.
33 posted on 07/20/2004 10:17:03 PM PDT by freedom44
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To: blam

What's interesting is that Germans and Iranians come from the same tribe - the Aryans.

In fact, the name Iran means "Land of the Aryans". In parts of Iran there's lots of light hair and eyes, but the majority have light to olive skin tone with dark hair and eyes. Although the facial structure is more european than middle eastern.

One can tell the difference between Iranians and Arabs, due to skin tone and facial structure, but Iranians don't look anything like Germans either. Very interesting stuff that always gets me.

-meant to send to Blam, too.


34 posted on 07/20/2004 10:18:21 PM PDT by freedom44
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To: freedom44
It's easy to take for granted the differences that can accumulate through isolation and differences in living conditions. Two small groups; one keeps at a some traditional way, maybe nomadic or semi-nomadic, while the other winds up figuring out settled agriculture and has much larger family sizes. In a few generations...
35 posted on 07/21/2004 4:47:05 AM PDT by SunkenCiv (Unlike some people, I have a profile. Okay, maybe it's a little large...)
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To: blam

" Where do you think is the homeland of the people with the genes for red-hair is?"

Neanderthals? (recalling an old thread on the topic)


36 posted on 07/21/2004 9:55:07 PM PDT by adam_az (Call your State Republican Party office and VOLUNTEER!!!!)
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To: freedom44

Actually Iran was "Persia" and they were not always called that. Indians and All of the other Indo-European languages aka Aryans all have an Aryan branch but Germans and Persians are not at all the same. If you put it that way Afghans come from that German branch too. And the vast majority of Iran or at least those that have light hair and eyes are the mixes.


37 posted on 08/12/2004 12:32:32 PM PDT by Archetype (Newsflash)
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To: Archetype

Iran was always called Iran inside the country - it was only called Persia by the West. The Greeks called Iranians - "Persians", but those within the country or the former empire called their country Iran - which translates to Land of the Aryans.

The lighter featured populace are not mixed - they are a part of various regions in Iran. The only darker featured Iranians are on the border with Iraq [consisting of the 2% Arab populace] and with Pakistan [where the Baluchi minority lives].


38 posted on 08/12/2004 1:39:58 PM PDT by freedom44
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To: freedom44

No it was not always called Iran. Listen,

Iraq Iran India Pakistan Afghanistan Armenia are all derivatives and various translations from the word "Aryan" since Sanskrit is a language that comes from India and is thus an Aryan language. Persia changed to "Iran" as its national title right around the 1960's only because it had an arrogant ego trip to supposedly show that they are "the lords" as the Ayatollah once tried.


39 posted on 08/12/2004 3:39:06 PM PDT by Archetype (Newsflash)
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To: freedom44

The lighter ones amongst Persians today are the mixes because for years Persians have pillaged lighter people and thus their cultures clashed and they mixed. They mixed with cultures whom are White and have those blonde hair and blue eyed features:

1) Armenians
2) Greeks
3) Romans etc.

They do have an Aryan BRANCH but alas they are not the source of Aryans. And also, the facts remain: that blonde red hair blue green eyed feature is a genetic mutation found only among the WHITE race. That is common only amongst White people because it comes from the climate just as other genetic mutations are all common amongst other races. There is no way in hell that Germans--who come from Germany north of the equator where they barely see sun-- could have been naturally dark skinned and haired. Colder regions as logic and anthropology shows they have little sunlight thus preventing them from getting natural dark skin. They are not prone to getting dark skin because they have adapted to their climate.


40 posted on 08/12/2004 3:43:44 PM PDT by Archetype (Newsflash)
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