Bloodstains on Shroud of Turin are probably fake, experts say

Fox News ^ | 07/15/18 | Christopher Carbone

[Simon Green]

The Shroud of Turin, which has been revered by some Christians as the burial cloth of Jesus, could be a fake, according to a new forensic investigation.

The investigation into the bloodstain pattern on the cloth was reported Tuesday in the Journal of Forensic Sciences and is apparently the first such analysis of the controversial shroud.

Held in the Cathedral of St. John the Baptist in Turin, Italy, the shroud shows the image of a crucified man and has been analyzed and scrutinized for many, many years. The Vatican regards it as an icon, rather than a religious relic—and the church has never weighed in on its authenticity nor officially rejected it.

In 2015, more than 2 million people saw the Shroud of Turin, which is 14-feet-long, 3.5-feet-wide and kept in a bulletproof, climate-controlled case. The cloth has long been the subject of debate and study.

Researchers concluded that the linen seems to be patched with bloodstains from a standing model, not a crucified man or a facedown corpse, reports BuzzFeed News, adding evidence to claims that it is a fraud.

“This is the kind of forensic work done all the time in police investigations,” Matteo Borrini, a forensic scientist at Liverpool John Moores University in the United Kingdom, told BuzzFeed News. “Even a crucified or hanging person should leave a distinct blood pattern on the cloth, which would be fascinating information to have.”

[Swordmaker]

No, I just did my research on the Shroud at length, because I was tempted by idiotic TBN-type arguments to believe in it in the early nineties.

No, Sontagged, you’ve been paying attention to/ atheists who don’t know any science or history. . . You’ve been ignoring my accurate rebuttal posts because they shoot down such claims as "the Shroud was created by Leonardo da Vinci" who literally could not have done so being born 100 years after its first known European expositions in Lirey, France. Such idiocy is the stuff skeptics raise to lead people down their lying pathways.

I follow the actual science and scholarship . . . Not the misleading myths of those liars who call REAL scientists working in their actual fields of expertise "pseudoscientists" because they are studying the Shroud. You’ve been echoing THEIR debunked stock in trade, claiming that because someone noticed something in the twelfth century, it became a full blown, but somehow SECRET technology, used only once on the Shroud, which, incidentally contains hundreds of those arcane, mysterious technologies, technologies we only developed in the twentieth and twenty-first century, that some unsung genius felt it was necessary to incorporate in his 14th century HOAX to extract French souls from pilgrims who would have paid the same amount to see an old bed sheet dipped in goat blood. . . and not known the difference!

That, of course, ignores the historical fact that Geoffrey de Charney, the Standard Bearer of the King of France, and the author of the French Code of Chivalry, as such a man who was supposed to be above reproach, the owner of the Shroud when it was purportedly created as this fake to con pilgrims out of their hard earned money, REFUSED to take any money at all, funding the chapel and the clerics who tended it at Lirey, out of his family’s coffers! He reportedly gave pilgrims who needed funds help. As a result, when he died, his widow had only the lands and the Shroud left as assets. . . Which is why and how it wound up in the hands of the Italian Royal House of Savoy. She sold it to survive.

Why does if not ring true this man would be a crooked con man?

[Sontagged]

https://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/3671494/posts

Again, I’m interested in what the eternal Word says more than artifacts, and wanted to know what you think about what this author has to say?

[Sontagged]

It just doesn’t jive with what the Bible says. And, not that I believe in the efficacy of carbon dating, but the Shroud can’t be dated properly, either.

The important point is that I believe Jesus was resurrected from the dead; that He is come in the flesh.

And no one needs the Shroud of Turin for salvation. But the Lord says “heaven and earth shall pass away, but my Word is Eternal”...

So I must take what the Bible says over the Shroud.

[Swordmaker]

Sontagged. . . You have to go to the original Greek and also to Jewish burial practices, then add logic. According to the Mishnah: dead Jewish bodies were not wound with bandages ala Egyptian mummies, that was a mistaken idea that came out of mistranslations and the discoveries of real mummies in the eighteenth century. Cloth was expensive, not to be wasted. Cloth represented many hours of labor. Depending on wealth and stature in the community, a Shroud of varying provenance and length was used. The poorest might just be covered by a face cloth. Time was also a consideration as a person who died had to be buried before sundown. There literally could be a lack of time for elaborate burial clothes. Ergo, they did not do elaborate wrappings. They did not have time.

Burial did involve bindings. . . but practical bindings. There were three primary binding for practical purposes which were necessary when one buries one’s dead on a shelf or a platform in a tomb. One binds the ankles and wrists to keep the arms and legs from flopping akimbo with gravity when rigor mortis passes and to try and keep the body in one place. One also tries to provide dignity. This is accomplished by binding the mouth closed. This is the cloth that is mentioned as "the face cloth, which had been around Jesus’ head, not lying with the strips of linen cloth but rolled up in a place by itself." The Greek word used for around the face is ambiguous and the binding method actually is "around the face" as a rolled "sudarium," or sweat cloth was used, placed under the chin (the beard in this case), up by the ears, and the tied at the crown of the head, to keep the mouth from gaping open. It did not need to cover His face as the Shroud did that.

To keep the eyes closed in death, a small stone, potsherd, or coins were placed on the eyes. The choice was again determined by the status of the person being buried. Poor people would be unlikely to get a coin. . . but Joseph of Arimathea would not scrimp on the burial of Jesus. As such, two coins have been identified on the eyes of the Man on the Shroud. One is a Pontius Pilate Lepton with the barely visible inscription "TIBEPIOY KAICAPOC", which skeptics criticized due to the use of the letter "K" in spelling of "KAICAPOC" which they argued the extant samples of the Lepton spelled with a “C". Then an archaeological dig in Palestine unearthed a Lepton with the "K" spelling, and another was found a couple of years later in the Berlin Museum collection, just not documented. They were apparently struck circa year 29. The other is apparently a Jewish coin called a "Prutah" used in the Temple, c. AD 30.

The wrist and ankle bindings could be cloth or rope, whatever was available.

After one year of occupying the niche or stone platform, the family would return to the tomb and ritually throw the bones that were left (and anything else) into the central ossuary with the rest of their ancestors’ bones. This is what "gathered unto the ancestors" means. The niche or stone platform can be reused. The use of individual stone ossuary boxes was an affectation adopted from the Romans in the first century and not something accepted by great numbers a Jews. It was a definite break with tradition frowned upon by the elders but the Sanhedrin practiced it. They were elite.. . But they still started on a niche or platform in a tomb before their bones were moved.

However, the typical family would not want filthy bandage type rags mixed with the bones. It was not going to make moving the bones very easy in a year. Archaeologists have found the remnants of the bindings, potsherds, stones, a few coins on the eyes, and remnants of just one top shroud (not over-under) in a first century Jewish cemetery that was destroyed and abandoned (the bodies did not get gathered to their ancestors although there were several ossuary pits). . . but what they did not find were remnants of any swathing type bandages on any of the graves.

[Swordmaker]

The “slit” I referred to was what I recalled from that decades old research... on the neck. Not the more diagonal slash across the chin.

There’s a very minor fold on the neck. . . Same argument. It’s an artifact of the photography taken by Secondo Pia, and later by Barrie Schwortz. Barrie has addressed it. The pleat is there and cannot be removed because it’s been there for centuries. One can press down on it and see it’s a fold in the cloth, but take your hand away, it folds right back. They tried putting a flat glass on it but even then they get reflection and the cloth is so thin it didn’t help much. There’s no demarcation between the body and head except in skeptics imaginations. They see what they want to see.

[Swordmaker]

Swordmaker certainly knows more of the written history of the Shroud than I do...so what would you say here?

There is very little scholarship in this article, Sontagged. When someone uses his opinion as fact such as "It should be noted that Jews, like Egyptians, were very particular about how they prepared human corpses for burial. Jews likely wrapped such bodies with several strips of cloth, thus not a single cloth." he is spouting misinformation based on myth. Jews did not bury their with "several strips of cloth". Conflating Jewish burial customs to Egyptian burials is wrong-headed as you can get. Jews were religiously required to bury their dead by sundown, the Egyptians took months to inter their dead. Jews treated dead bodies as ritually unclean, Egyptians exactly the opposite.

Othonion is actually translated in Strong’s Concordance as "a fine linen sheet". Add the binding strip for the ankles, wrists, and around the face, you have grave clothes, "othonia", the plural form. Several cloths, one large two or three smaller cloths. Plural. Do you know how hard Linen is to tear? It’s almost impossible.

That sweat cloth still exist to this day. It’s called "The Sudarium of Oviedo" and is kept in a Cathedral in Oviedo Spain. It has approximately 110 points of congruence in blood stains with the blood stains on the Shroud. It show a staining pattern of having been rolled diagonally into a long roll that is sufficiently length to tie around a man’s face to keep his jaw closed in death. It also has a bloody handprint on it from where someone carried the head of a body face down, while this cloth covered the head and face in death, perhaps from a cross to a tomb. The blood type matches that on the Shroud.

By-the-way, the Synoptic Gospels use the word the Greek word sindon in the singular to designate the grave clothes. (Matt. 27:59; Mk. 15:46 (twice); Lk. 23:53). Sindon in Greek means large cloth, singular. It literally means a sail, and used sails were frequently used as shrouds. Incidentally, vs. l2 ("But Peter rose and ran to the tomb, stooping and looking in, he saw the linen cloths (plural) by themselves; and he went home wondering what happened.") does not appear in the most ancient manuscripts, but is added by later ancient authorities.

Also as an aside, the Hungarian Pray manuscript shows the Shroud with the distinctive poker hole, herring bone weave, and Jesus with his hands folded minus thumbs. . . It’s provenance is late twelfth centuriy.

[21twelve]

Thanks Swordmaker for all of this information. I imagine that like me - your faith doesn’t revolve around a piece of cloth. I view the Shroud as more of a scientific mystery more than an article of faith. Perhaps though, in its mystery, it does draw unbelievers to Christ.

God created everything, and everything in Creation points to Him for believers. It wouldn’t surprise me that certain things He has created are more obvious indicators than others. I think that the Shroud is one of them.

[SunkenCiv]

The entire Shroud of Turin keyword:

• The Shroud Of Turin Is Not Jesus' Burial Cloths [2018]
• The Red Cross, Revisited [2018]
• 'He Is Risen!' - Physical Evidence of Christ's Resurrection? [2018]
• [Cath Caucus]Remarkable Relic Of The Resurrection: The Shroud Of Turin And New[Video] [2017]
• Shroud, New Study: There Is Blood of a Man Tortured and Killed [2017]
• International Conference on the Shroud of Turin, Pasco, Washington. July 19 to July 22, 2017 [2017]
• Shroud of Turin coins may finally have been identified [2017]
• New Study Links Shroud of Oviedo, Turin; Reveals Spear Wound [2017]
• Astonishing Discovery at Christ's Tomb Supports Turin Shroud [2016]
• The Shroud of Turin [2016]
• The Shroud of Turin, Authenticated Again [2016]
• New Study: The Shroud of Turin and the Sudarium of Oviedo Covered the Same Person [2016]
• Modern-day 'Indiana Jones' links Shroud to 1st century [2016]
• Emmy-winning artist depicts Jesus from Shroud [2016]
• "SHROUD (of Turin) A NEW ASTONISHING PHENOMENON DISCOVERED IN THIS FIND" [2016]
• How One Skeptical Scientist Came to Believe the Shroud of Turin [2015]
• What did Jesus look like? Italian police use the Holy Shroud to develop facial image. [2015]
• Shroud Of Turin DNA Indicates Global Origins [2015]
• Holy Tunic of Argenteuil, Seamless Garment, To Be Displayed in 2016 [2015]
• The Shroud of Turin: A Mystery Across the Ages [2015]
• Is this the face of Jesus as a boy? Italian police reverse the ageing process on image ... [2015]
• "Stains on the Sudarium of Oviedo Coincide with Those on the Shroud" [2015]
• Muslim Delegation Visits Shroud of Turin [2015]
• Shroud of Turin goes on public display [2015]
• What Does The Shroud of Turin Prove About Easter? [2015]
• A Brief Review of the Recent CNN Documentary and (its) Medieval Photograph Theory [2015]
• Durham couple trace origins of the Shroud of Turin -- Video [2015]
• The "Other" Shroud of Christ [2015]
• A look at Pope Francis' summer trip to the Shroud of Turin [2015]
• The Shroud: Not a Painting, Not a Scorch, Not a Photograph [2015]
• Documentary on the Shroud Airs Sunday [2015]
• Amazing Book The Second Shroud Discovered [2015]
• Almost 600,000 Bookings for Turin Shroud [2015]
• The True Veronica Veil Second Shroud Discovered -- (Shroud of Turin Connection) [2015]
• Second Shroud Discovered Vatican Veronica Veil [2015]
• Archaeologists discover one of the earliest-known images of Jesus -- and he's beardles [2014]
• New Study Shows Man of the Shroud Had "Dislocated" Arms [2014]
• "TEN COMMANDMENTS" SCORES (Old Charlton Heston Movie top rated show on Sunday Night) [2014]
• Manoppello's Holy Face shrine sees uptick in US interest [2014]
• Breaking News: The Shroud of Turin Will Go On Public Display in Turin, Italy for 45 Days in 2015 [2013]
• (Catholic Caucus) - EWTN Live - [2013-11-6 - Barrie Schwortz - Interview on "Shroud of Turin"] [2013]
• Shrouded in Mystery (Shroud of Turin) [2013]
• Pentagon's Giant Blood Serum Bank May Provide PTSD Clues [2013]
• Original research team member says science still can't explain Shroud (with video) [2013]
• A lot of old blood types as AB: Not Exactly -- Shroud.of Turin [2013]
• Does This Finding Prove Jesus' Resurrection? New Book Offers Stunning Details About the Shroud [2013]
• Shroud of Turin Hits Airwaves Amid New Claims That It's Real [2013]
• How Two Sacred, Bloody Images Take Us to God [2013]
• Turin Shroud 'is not a medieval forgery' [2013]
• Holy Shroud:The essence of religion meets human science [2013]
• New experiments on Shroud show it's not medieval (dates to 1st century) [2013]
• Benedict praised for Holy Saturday broadcast of Shroud [2013]
• Shroud of Turin to be shown on Holy Saturday telecast [2013]
• Ostension of the Holy Shroud on Televisions Worldwide [2013]
• The Shroud of Turin The Holographic Experience (1 Minute Amazing Video) [2012]
• The Holy Shroud: One Big Bang and the body was gone [2012]
• Pollen is evidence that the Holy Shroud is indeed a winding sheet [2012]
• Scientific, Scriptural evidence points to authenticity of image of Jesus on Shroud of Turin [2012]
• Was Holy Shroud created in a flash? Italian researchers resurrect claim [2011]
• Shroud of Turin can't be a fake, researchers say: Scientists unable to replicate cloth's [2011]
• Scientists say Turin Shroud is supernatural (misleading title) [2011]
• Scientists Say Turin Shroud Image Created by Ultraviolet Lasers [2011]
• "The Shroud is not a fake" (Scientists say there is no way to falsify or duplicate it) [2011]
• Shroud of Turin is a fake created by famous master Giotto, claims Italian art expert [2011]
• Resurrecting the mystery of the Shroud of Turin [2011]
• Shroud of Turin a 'radiation photo' of resurrection? [2010]
• ITALY EXPELLED MOROCCANS ON SUSPICION OF POPE PLOT [2010]
• Shroud of Turin supports Resurrection, expert affirms [2010]
• Holy Shroud of Turin: God's Gift for Our Time [2010]
• Pope:Shroud of Turin is the icon of "God's death" [Full Text] [2010]
• Jerome R. Corsi : '2nd face' on Shroud points to supernatural origin [2010]
• Turin Exhibition of Christ Exhibits Antique Vestment Work [2010]
• The Christ of the Folded Napkin [2010]
• Holy Shroud was hidden from Hitler's grasp in Benedictine Abbey (here are the details) [2010]
• Unveiling the Mystery (Historical and Scientific Evidence for Shroud of Turin) [2010]
• The secrets surrounding the Holy Shroud [2010]
• 3D-face creator says Shroud proves resurrection (scientific evidence of resurrection?) [2010]
• Is this the face of Jesus Christ?Figure of crucified man on Shroud comes to life [2010]
• New Method Could Revolutionize Dating of Ancient Treasures [2010]
• Turin in Philly [2010]
• Face of Jesus appears on Marmite lid [2010]
• A Quantum Hologram of Christ's Resurrection? (Fabric of Time) [2010]
• Shroud of Turin: Image provokes prayer, curiosity, scholarly disputes [2010]
• Jesus-era leper sheds light on Turin shroud mystery [2009]
• Vatican Researcher Claims to Have Found Text on Shroud of Turin [2009]
• Shroud of Turin -- Science by Press Release (Again). Another Editorial Response by Barrie Schwortz [2009]
• Death certificate is imprinted on the Shroud of Turin, says Vatican scholar (more info) [2009]
• Researcher Says Text Proves Shroud of Turin Real [2009]
• [Shroud of Turin] Comments About the Recent Experiment of Professor Luigi Garlaschelli [2009]
• Benedict to Visit Shroud in May [2009]
• Breaking: Obama's Image Cleary Visible on Shroud of Turin [2009]
• Science by Press Release? An Editorial Response to the latest Shroud of Turin announcement [2009]
• A Reminder: Barrie Swortz to Appear on Coast-to-Coast with Geore Noory on October 14, 2009 [2009]
• Teacher Has Theory on the Shroud of Turin [2009]
• Scientist re-creates Turin Shroud to show it's fake [2009]
• Italian group claims to debunk Shroud of Turin [2009]
• Italian scientist reproduces Shroud of Turin [2009]
• Introducing the Shroud of Turin Education and Research Association, Inc. (STERA, Inc.) [2009]
• Pope confirms visit to Shroud of Turin; new evidence on shroud emerges.... [2009]
• Pope confirms visit to Shroud of Turin; new evidence on shroud emerges [2009]
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• Is the Turin Shroud genuine after all? From beyond the grave, a startling new claim [2009]
• Knights Templar hid the Shroud of Turin, says Vatican [2009]
• Shroud of Turin again on display in 2010 [2009]
• Review of Discovery Channel Documentary "Unwrapping the Shroud: New Evidence" [2009]
• UNWRAPPING THE SHROUD: NEW EVIDENCE -- A Review of the Discovery Channel documentary [2009]
• Vanity: Shroud of Turin Program on Now on Discovery [2008]
• Discovery Channel's "UNWRAPPING THE SHROUD: NEW EVIDENCE" ... December 14 At 10PM ET/PT [2008]
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• Analytical Results On Thread Samples Taken From The Raes Sampling Area Of The Shroud Cloth [2008]
• THE SUDARIUM OF OVIEDO: A STUDY OF FIBER STRUCTURES [2008]
• A DETAILED CRITICAL REVIEW OF THE CHEMICAL STUDIES ON THE TURIN SHROUD [2008]
• New: Shroud of Turin carbon dating proved erroneous ( performed on non-original cloth sample) [2008]
• (Shroud of) Turin shroud controversy envelops pair [2008]
• Oxford view on Shroud of Turin eagerly awaited [2008]
• Will Judean Desert Find Shed Light On Shroud Of Turin? [2008]
• Turin Shroud to go on public display [Open] [2008]
• Springs prof revives shroud riddle [2008]
• A New Radiocarbon Hypothesis -- Shroud of Turin dating [2008]
• A Review of the Recent BBC Shroud Documentary [2008]
• Behold The Man -Turin Shroud Studies Confirm Image's Unique Nature [2008]
• THE JOSPICE MATTRESS COVER IMAGE - Shroud of Turin research paper. [2007]
• Shroud of Turin - A Review of the Recent National Geographic Channel Documentary [2007]
• Michelangelo Frescoes of the Sistine Chapel Contain Divinely-Encoded Images of the Shroud of Turin [2007]
• Summary of Challenges to the Authenticity of the Shroud of Turin [2007]
• A Review of the Recent National Geographic Channel Documentary (on the Shroud of Turin) [2007]
• Being Catholic: Sacred Things, Relics and the Incorruptibles [2007]
• Shroud.com Celebrates 11th Anniversary! + Large update and added articles [2007]
• Possibly the Biggest Radiocarbon Dating Mistake Ever: Why students ask questions [2006]
• Author: Shroud of Turin wrongly condemned [2006]
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• Cloning may help terrible prophecies come true: another Christ or antichrist [2006]
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• The Shroud of Turin for Journalists: Where Have All the Skeptics Gone? [2005]
• Shroud of Turin -- Local scientist says the cloth covered Christ [2005]
• Shroud of Turin 'shows future of science,' says local expert [2005]
• Shroud of Turin Conference Awash in Controversy and Criticism [2005]
• Forensic Pathology and the Crucifixion of Jesus - EWTN Live 8pm 03AUG05 [2005]
• Shroud of Turin 'a fake' [2005]
• Turin Shroud confirmed as fake [2005]
• Teacher Claims Shroud of Turin Is Fake [2005]
• Man Floats Shroud of Turin Forgery Theory [2005]
• New Analysis Confirms Second Face on Shroud of Turin and Raises Questions About Other Images [2005]
• Surprising new study on Shroud of Turin [2005]
• Forensic Scientists reveal what Jesus may have looked like as a 12-year old [2005]
• SHROUD OF TURIN - SKEPTICAL INQUIRER - NO BULL FACTS [2005]
• BLOOD TYPE FOUND IN ICONS IS SAME AS IN SHROUD OF TURIN AND 'LANCIANO MIRACLE' [2005]
• Nature Magazine Comments on Rogers' Debunking of the Shroud of Turin Carbon 14 Tests [2005]
• Shroud to be discussed on The O'Reilly Factor Tonight [2005]
• Shroud of Turin: "MUCH older than suggested by radiocarbon dating carried out in the 1980s" [2005]
• Shroud of Turin: Old as Jesus? [2005]
• Turin shroud 'older than thought' [2005]
• New Chemical Testing Points to Ancient Origin for Burial Shroud of Jesus [2005]
• Shroud Of Turin - New Date? [2005]
• Did boy Jesus look like this? [2004]
• Did boy Jesus look like this? Forensic experts use computer images from Shroud [2004]
• The Shroud's Second Image: New evidence reopens debate about the controversial relic [2004]
• Schilling's red sock is a fitting symbol(Inappropriate Press Article) [2004]
• Rather and the Shroud of Turin [2004]
• The Shroud of Caiaphas [2004]
• Scientists find new face on Turin shroud [2004]
• Second Face on the Shroud of Turin [2004]
• Shroud of Turin debate starts again [2004]
• Turin Shroud Back Side Shows Face [2004]
• Turin Shroud Back Side Shows Face [2004]
• Jesus' Shroud? Recent Findings Renew Authenticity Debate [2004]
• Jesus' Shroud? Recent Findings Renew Authenticity Debate [2004]
• Christ: The 1st Christian martyr [2004]
• The Passion of the Christ, and of Mankind: Brutality in Rome, Iraq, and the World [2004]
• Secrets of the Dead: Shroud of Christ? PBS Broadcast Program Series [2004]
• Tonight on PBS, The Shroud of Christ [2004]
• Shroud of Turin experts say Gibson film sparks new interest in cloth [2004]
• THE PROOF THAT THIS IS THE "FACE OF CHRIST" [2004]
• FRESH CLUE SHOWS TURIN SHROUD MAY BE GENUINE BURIAL CLOTH OF CHRIST [2004]
• "The Passion" too violent? The "Shroud of Turin" shows it happened! [2004]
• Shroud of Turin description in Sermon from 944AD Constantinople! [2004]
• Pyrolysis/Mass Spectrometry show threads from Shroud of Turin Carbon-dating different [2004]
• Shroud of germs (Shroud of Turin theory) [2003]
• Shroud of Turin [2003]
• RESURRECTION OF THE SHROUD OF TURIN [2003]
• Merry Christmas - The Shroud of Turin's 3D Mystery [2002]
• Many Claim Divine Image On Texas Street Sign (With Pic) [2002]
• Dear John, What were you thinking? An open letter on the Shroud of Turin [2002]
• Press Conference from Shroud of Turin Restoration Critics [2002]
• Restoration of Shroud of Turin is Completed [2002]
• Experts Restore Shroud of Turin [2002]
• Restored Shroud Unveiled [2002]
• MAN OF THE SHROUD [2002]
• EVIDENCE FOR THE SKEWING OF THE C-14 DATING OF THE SHROUD OF TURIN DUE TO REPAIRS [2002]
• Jesus, in the Shroud of Turin is truly a revelation [2002]

[Mrs. Don-o]

Let me add to that --- while conceding that none of us has any "scientific" specific comprehension about how we'll be after the Resurrection---

As I understand it, Our Lord's Resurrected Body would be perfect, complete in every detail, lacking nothing, and then some. All of Him: cells, tissues, organs and systems, limbs and senses. They'd be more than complete: they'd be perfect.

And needing nothing.

I can't see how any of Our Resurrected Lord's bodily systems would have needed air or food or water or anything else to function. He could eat fish on the beach, bu He didn't require food. He could breathe on the Apostles and say "Peace," but He didn't need oxygen. He could display His physical Wounds, but he didn't need stitches or antibiotics or analgesia. He had no physical needs whatsoever.

He was, and is, Sovereign of the Universe. He didn't depend on physical things, Time and Space, Gravity and Magnetism and the strong and weak forces of the atom. They all depended on Him.

Beyond that, I don't think anyone knows how His various systems worked. That's why I can't comment any further than that.

[Swordmaker]

And no one needs the Shroud of Turin for salvation. But the Lord says “heaven and earth shall pass away, but my Word is Eternal”...

Have I said that “one needs the Shroud for salvation? No, I have not.

Let me ask you this: If the Shroud IS the real thing, who made the image on it. The answer to that question is the image was made by Jesus Christ, at the moment of His Ressurection. In other words, God made it. . . and left it for us for a very important reason and that reason is to testify to the fact of the Resurrection. Some have called it the fifth Gospel of Jesus Christ.

[Sontagged]

And I believe the Jesus would have indicated that He was in a glorified, bloodless state, but instead all He said was “See, touch Me, for I am not a ghost, but flesh and bones”...

The definition of flesh is that it has veins in it with blood in it.

The definition of bones are that they have bone marrow with a lot of blood in it.

Jesus was raised in the flesh, and this interfaces with John’s admonition that we believe “Jesus is come in the flesh”... and those who don’t believe Jesus is come in the flesh are against God (anti Christ).

[MHGinTN]

Not one poster is claiming that Jesus did not come in the flesh. Where He is now He does not require blood to have LIFE in Him. As a human, as GOD come in the flesh of a human, His body had LIFE IN the blood. The blood is not the LIFE, the Word of God says plainly that The LIFE is IN the blood.

[Sontagged]

I get what you are saying, but Jesus did not discuss this very salient point of doctrine at a most important moment in the history of the world;

which would make Jesus a weird liar, committing a sin of trickery and omission...

by purposely leading His disciples to think he was “just me myself” in human form but deceitfully omitting the specific word “blood” from what He did actually say:

“See my hands and my feet, that it is I; touch me and know that a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see that I have.”

Look at my hands and feet, and see that it’s really me. Touch me, and see for yourselves. Ghosts don’t have flesh and bones, but you can see that I do.”

“See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.”

Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself; handle me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

See my hands and feet, that it is I myself; handle, and see: for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as you see me to have.

[Sontagged]

Dear SM (by the way, I recall praying for you a long while back and discussing cayenne pepper for your ailments... hope it is all better now... I didn't know you were a Christian Mac guy!)

The Shroud is interesting and I find your discussions very interesting but it is evidently not important enough for the Lord to record in the Word. And when I was into the Shroud as a young Christian, I even remember citing some verse in Isaiah (that I had heard about from Paul and Jan Crouch on TBN... not the smartest or most authoritative people!.. :(

And as you know, in our minds, we cannot allow extra-Biblical ideas to take their place in our minds as a "Fifth Gospel of the Shroud" because we cannot add to the sealed Word... we are "not to go beyond what is written"... and we have already the risen Christ in our lives... ; and to quote a previous poster's insight (cuban leaf):

And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

For me, his post is salient, but Swordmaker, I REALLY appreciate your thoughtfulness and thoroughness regarding the Shroud. Just hope for you that your faith is in Christ, not an artifact.

And also, since I have benefitted from your Mac posts for so many years, I appreciate the scientific approach you have taken here. Jesus is the ultimate Scientist as the Creator, and I think He loves it when we figure things out about His creation... because we are tracing His own thoughts as Creator! Thanks and GBU

[editor-surveyor]

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The scriptures do say plainly that they had to obtain “aloes” to prepare the body for the tomb.

The information given indicates that the necessary preparation was common knowledge to the average person, so it was not likely anything like the Egyptian traditions.

[editor-surveyor]

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Still grasping at straws!

[MHGinTN]

There is no way that you can be this dense, posted repeatedly the very verse from Jesus that refutes your lunacy. You know what you are doing and it is not a Christian discussion. Jesus said flesh and bones. He did not offer His bones to purchase your redemption, He gave HIS BLOOD. That you are so desperate to diminish the Power of God to animate the flesh and bones without using blood to carry The Life, by some means He has not shared with you might be stuck in your craw ... you cannot explain so you opine that God is not able to do what He will do at the Rapture.

THE WORD OF GOD tells you flesh and blood cannot inherit the eternal life, but you spit on that because God has not supported your opinions! I leave you to the deception in which you are wallowing so proudly.

[Sontagged]

Uh... you are the one saying Jesus had no blood in His body after the Resurrection...

You have no scriptures but a perceived “omission” of the word “blood” on Christ’s part, which makes Jesus into some sort of tricky weird liar...

You paint a picture of Jesus as someone who would stand in front of His disciples and say “See, touch me, handle Me, I am myself not a ghost but flesh and bones”

... but presume the Disciples knew that He had no blood in His body at all when He said that?

Why would you presume that?

It is your presumption, based on your perception that Jesus PURPOSELY omitted the word blood when He said “flesh and bones” and you have nothing else to back you up...

... because I called you out on the lie that Jesus had no blood in His body after he died on the cross.

Are you, too, ashamed that you were caught in that lie?

Because He did have blood in His body after death.

And when He was resurrected.

You are deceived and under deception.

You paint a portrait of a lying, weirdo tricky Christ.

Jesus is a straight shooter. He says what He means with no ambiguity, and if you trust the Word is Truth, you will find it.

You have pushed a bloodless Frankenjesus with NO scriptures to back you up.

May the Lord rebuke you for pushing this nonsense.

We are not to even open the door to people who preach a different Gospel than what has been preached, but let them be accursed; this curse is upon your own head, for you preach a Frankenchrist.

No where in the Word does it say Jesus had no blood in His body after He died, or when He was risen.

You are making Jesus out to be a trickster, who would presume the Disciples knew He was bloodless when He SPECIFICALLY SAID “I AM FLESH AND BONES.”

Ridiculous, anti-Christ deception. You can’t admit I was right about there being blood in His body after death, and you can’t admit your entire doctrine is based on specious reasoning that taints your understanding of His sacrifice on the Cross, once and for all.

[MHGinTN]

The spirit that is in you is now oozing out: “... because I called you out on the lie that Jesus had no blood in His body after he died on the cross.” You are of your father ...

[Sontagged]

Right... Jesus DID have blood in His body after He died on the Cross because blood and water came out of Him after He died on the Cross.
Can you read the words?

You were caught in the lie: you said Jesus had no blood in His body after He died on the cross

... and you can’t admit it.

Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus’ side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water.

One of the soldiers, however, pierced his side with a spear, and immediately blood and water flowed out.

But one of the soldiers pierced his side with a spear, and at once there came out blood and water.

Instead, one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and immediately blood and water flowed out.

But one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and blood and water came out immediately.

But one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and immediately blood and water came out.

But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.

But one of the soldiers pierced his side with a spear, and at once blood and water came out.

One of the soldiers stuck his spear into Jesus’ side, and blood and water came out.

One of the soldiers, however, plunged his spear into Jesus’ side, and at once blood and water poured out.

But one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and at once blood and water came out.