Posted on 08/13/2004 9:36:00 AM PDT by IdaBriggs
Hello. I am hoping you can help me.
I am trying to "reach out" to your side of the world in an effort to help each side understand the other. I apologize in advance if I offend or upset any of you, because that is NOT my intention. I hope by putting my "real name" on this post, you will view what I am about to say in the sincere way I mean it.
I am somewhat frightened of you.
Again, I apologize if I am offending, but I thought you should know about it. I also know I am not alone in my feelings about you because I have talked with other people who feel the same way. We think you are trying to impose your religion and way of life on the rest of us.
I know most of you are good people. You are kind and generous with your friends, family and neighbors. You help strangers change tires, work as teachers, risk your lives in the service of others -- all things everyone admires, respects and honors. Those of us on "the other side" do the same thing.
But sometimes you talk in painful ways about “evil” as if to associate us with "demons" and "satan" because we don't agree with your path. That is very hurtful, and it makes us feel like you don't really see us as fellow human beings with different understandings of God. I am a gardener by hobby, and not always a very good one. My husband likes to tease me about "killing plants" instead of growing them because sometimes I over water or put too much fertilizer on them, yet every year I keep trying, and gradually, my garden is starting to become beautiful. I love roses in particular, and am reminded every day how wonderful God is because He made so many different kinds – I have three different red roses alone, and each one is perfect! I have seven different colors of Petunias, and use them to explain how God loves people of all colors to my neighbor's children. I guess that is why I believe you, who scare me so, really do have love in your hearts for all of us, even though sometimes it doesn't seem that way.
The worst times are when the topics of Abortion and Gay Sex come up. No one would ever force you to have an Abortion or indulge in Gay Sex in America EVER, yet you persist in making these topics of conversation as if they trump all other considerations. The only way I can reconcile this with a rational viewpoint is if I think you believe you are trying to SAVE those who don't believe the way you do from Hell. This seems to be a very loving action on your part, but feels rude and controlling in a not-positive way to the rest of us. Many of us do not believe these things will result in eternal damnation, but are simply part of God’s plan for each individual.
If you are truly horrified by the thought of these things, I don’t know what to say to make it easier for you to understand, but I will still try. I guess it would be like making everyone not wear jewelry or make up because some churches believe adornment is demonstrating vanity; it may end up being something we are all judged by, but it may also simply be a misreading or misinterpretation of the text. I am not saying your adherence to the tenets of your faith is wrong; I am saying other people have a right to love God in their own ways, and our civil laws should not be about defining “sin” but crime.
I say again, I am not meaning to offend. I have a very strong faith in God, and trust him to do the right thing. I don't like hearing people say that God is judging all of America based on who is President; both men have qualities worthy of admiration at some level, and both are interviewing for the job of enforcing our constitution. It demands we keep church and state as separate institutions so that we don't have wars in this country over religion (like they do in Ireland with Catholics and Protestants or in Iraq with Sunni's and Shiites). It demands I respect your right NOT to have an abortion if you don't want one, and NOT to indulge in gay sex if you don't want to, and to follow the teachings of your faith in the way you best understand them. It demands we all work "for the common defense, promote the general welfare and ensure the blessings of liberty for ourselves and our posterity" and on behalf of that, I am reaching out to you to find out how we can frame the debates on these things without heaping scorn and shame upon each other. No matter what the results of the November 2, 2004, election, I personally want all Americans to be proud of our country, and the way we run it.
I know I am already.
In Humble Sincerity, Ida M. Briggs
My understanding is that being Gay is something you either are, or aren't. Either you find your own sex attractive, or you don't, and either way, my belief is that God made you that way for a reason. It sounds like you are also afraid, just like I am of you. (I am a married heterosexual woman, just so you know.)
On of the persons who posted on your thread over there said something to the effect that your effort over here will be wasted because we all have closed minds.
This from someone who says that we believe that "darker than Paris Hilton should be locked up 'cause they're all druggies who are intelligent enough only for menial labor".
It would appear to me as though that person has a very closed mind.
This is your problem, you don't see an unborn baby as a human, conservatives generally do. But, yet you grieved your lost unborn children. (I also had miscarriages, I understand you here) So, your quote, to us is applicable to the unborn children as well as born babies. At what point does a baby become a human? At conception? At 3 months, 6 months, at birth?
Welcome to FR.
Welcome to Free Republic.
Your post was interesting, not because of the specific issues you brought up (abortion, gay sex) but because of the mindset that prompted the post. This mindset is really at the heart of the divisiveness between liberals and conservatives.
In your post you mentioned that you believed that conservatives were imposing their beliefs on you and this made you afraid. This is the problem, Ida. There are no laws in existence or under discussion that force you to accept any political or religious viewpoint. None. You are fearing a false outcome.
Conservatives know this and that is why we don't fear liberals or liberal ideas. We may not like them, but we don't fear them.
The other problem is mistaking tolerance for approval. Too often liberals want other people to embrace and approve of their ideas. When this doesn't happen, it's not framed as a disagreement - it's framed as a profound character flaw.
Really diversity is all about a variety of ideas - some of which you will not like and cannot support but that's okay.
WE persist? "We" are not trying to shove "our" beliefs down children's throats in public schools. Take "our" religious beliefs out of it, from a strictly biological level, gay sex is wrong and a serious health risk, period. "Mother Earth" doesn't even like it. There is no justification in telling children a gay lifestyle is OK. It's a blatent attempt to justify devient and dangerous behavior. Remember, the hershey highway is exit only!
>1. What people called 'crimes' are generally derived from the Ten Commandments. The concepts of sin and crime are closely linked.
And I think you have hit the problem on the head. I don't want you to think I am ignoring your post, so I would like to come back to it. Its an extremely good one! Thank you!
You forgot to add Jesus wantded sinners to repent and instructed us to go and SIN NO MORE.
No it's not always about convenience. Sometimes the health of the mother is an issue. But generally, abortion in this conutry is treated as just another contraceptive option and that's appalling.
We think you are trying to impose your religion and way of life on the rest of us.
Thats funny, I'm pursuaded that it is "Liberals" who are
trying to impose THEIR religion on ME.
1. You don't want me to own firearms to defend myself,
my family, my livestock, and my property against
predators, be they human or otherwise. If you do
"cede" me this right, you want to limit the choices
I have in such things as magazine capacity or even
cosmetic features.
2. You want to force me to educate my children your
way. And while the right to homeschool our children
was re-recognized in 1973, you want to "approve"
the curriculum we choose, and in other ways restrict
our God-given right to direct the education of our
children as we see fit. And while you diligently work
to mitigate this right, I am compelled by threat of
force to pay thousands of dollars per year to
support the tax-funded, union-run government
indoctrination day camps you euphemistically call
"Public Schools".
Education is NOT, and CANNOT be morally neutral
or even religiously neutral.
Somewhere, somehow the questions of origins and
destinies MUST arise, and the answers to these
questions will determine whether there is any
transcendent, objective, external Truth behind
any law or authority.
For example, why is it wrong to kill or steal?
If you cannot provide for me an External, Transcendent,
OBJECTIVE TRUTH that answers this question, then all
you have is an Opinion. Relativistically, your opinion
is meaningless and will perish with you when you die.
This applies to every rule right down to why I must
shut up and listen in class when the teacher is
speaking.
The Tax-Funded, Union-Run Indoctrination Day-Camps
are nothing more than the Bus Ministry of the
Established State Church of Humanism, with its various
Atheist, Agnostic, Pagan, and Animistic denominations.
Here is the basic creed of the State Religion of
Humanism.
a. Everything came out of Nothing from Nowhere for
No Apparent Reason.
b. Life is just a curious side-effect of an unknowing,
uncaring Cosmos.
c. When you die, you are just so much compost, or,
depending upon your Humanist denomination, your
spirit is re-manifested in some other thing.
d. If it feels good, do it.
Thomas Jefferson said, "To compel a man to furnish moneys
for the propagation of ideas he disbelieves or abhors is
tyranny."
Yes, Ida, you Liberals are the tyrants.
Only a tyrant believes that rights can be granted, or
rescinded, or created out of nothing.
In Faith and Freedom, Benjamin Hart correctly asserts,
With no higher lawgiver, the state becomes the
highest moral authority, in which case rights
are no longer "unalienable," but become subject
to the whim of the monarch, dictator, asembly,
or the vicissitudes of human fashion.
Thomas Jefferson asked rhetorically, "Can the liberties of
a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only
firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people. that
their liberties are the gift of God?
Of course, the answer is no.
The god of the Liberals, whatever it may be, permits
adultery, homosexuality, pornography, blasphemy, and
every form of lewd, lascivious, salacious, prurient
behavior.
My God permits no such things.
You can worship the god(s) of the Liberals. But as for
me and my house, we will worship YHWH, the God of the
Bible.
We will leave you alone if you leave us alone.
In fact, by birth-controlling and aborting yourselves
out of the gene pool, you may be doing us a favor.
Perhaps you should consider that YHWH's worst curse is
to "cut off your generations".
"Homosexuality" is an illness, like pedophelia. We all have "urges" of one kind or another -- as adults and good citizens we do not give into them.
Why do you think there is a correllation between pedophiles and homosexuals? Someone here can certainly get the info to you.
And that is how Pro-Lifers feel about abortion. If and when this country does overturn Rv.W, will you feel this same thing?
Life, any life, is a gift from God Himself. Willingly taking that life of your own free will violates His will.
So stop being afraid.
But sometimes you talk in painful ways about “evil” as if to associate us with "demons" and "satan" because we don't agree with your path.
Do you ever get afraid of your side when they do it?
"Bush is evil"
Note that I'm not justifying such behavior on our side by saying "hey, both sides do it". I'm trying to figure out why is this fright one sided.
By the way, did Dem_Strategist put you up to this? Why am I asking you?
Speak for yourself. Activist judges are in fact shoving these "values" (or lack thereof") down our throats. We are being forced to subsidize that which we, as civilized people, disdain. Our children are being brainwashed with liberal claptrap at school. We have much to fear.
The end of shame was the beginning of the end of civilizaton.
It would never occur to me to impose my religion on you. However, the left in this country have been assaulting our religious liberty for decades. They claim a "separation of church and state" which doesn't exist in our Constitution. They use the courts and left-leaning judges to make law instead of interpreting the law. They impose their anti-Christian, anti-American views on us and then tell us to shut up when we object. They like to pontificate about free speech so long as they're the ones speaking. They actually abhor the 1st Amendment in it's entirety. Witness the attempts to silence Rush Limbaugh, Fox News, Ann Coulter or any number of conservatives who challenge their world view.
You say, "No one would ever force you to have an Abortion or indulge in Gay Sex in America EVER,..." I'm curious, who is forcing you (or any lib) to listen to Rush Limbaugh, watch Fox News or read Ann Coulter?? Did someone hold a gun to your head and force you to come to FR and read what is said here?? If you don't like what is said here, don't put the address in your browser, don't click on the link, don't listen to Limbaugh, or read Ann Coulter...stay in your ignorance. Don't be offended, but no one here would have missed your presence. If, OTOH, you're truly interested in open debate and learning the truth, you've come to the right place.
One other thing...stop apologizing for your views...we're not as easily offended as liberals are.
Oooo, that mis-spelling error is SERIES!!! Vey series...Spell check couldn't even fix that...
And who is vouching for you?
Since Jul 20, 2004
A game of tag team, anybody?
Statistics show that there are some life experiences for which homosexual men are disproportionately more likely to have had happen to them.
1. They had a poor relationship with their fathers.
2. They were sexually molested as children.
Not saying this is true in all cases, but it appears highly likely that there is a very significant "nurture" aspect to becoming an active homosexual. Humans being complicated, I hesitate to assign any firm allocations to "nature" and "nurture" -- nor do I have to. The question isn't about the fact of homosexuality, but rather the fact of how homosexuality should be addressed on the grounds of public policy and religion.
That issue boils down to the question of whether homosexuality is a Good Thing, which should be placed on a par with other sexual arrangements, such as heterosexual marriage (the benefits of which have been demonstrated over thousands of years). It is not. If it were, we would not be subject to the twin assaults of "accept me" and "pay for the medical consequences of my activities," which seem to define the terms of the issue of homosexuality.
Homosexuality is a disorder, and a departure from what is quite obviously the true nature of human sexuality. The homosexual agenda (if you will accept the term) is focused on trying to convince us that it's "no different," though of course it is. Note that there are no longer any legal bars to the expression of homosexual desires, other than age of consent laws (with which NAMBLA, among others, wishes to do away). What homosexuals now want, is for public policy to treat their disorder as being equal and indistinguishable from normal. And that's dishonest.
Of course, you realize that pedophiles, serial killers, and various other nasty folk appear to be "born that way." It is clear that "being born that way" is not sufficient grounds for normalizing any and all behavior.
Moreover, you're tacitly equating "born that way" to "this is a good thing." We must compare that, however, the idea among some in the "pro-choice" crowd that it is acceptable and right to abort children who suffer from some medical condition. Thus, even your own post suggests that you don't believe that "born that way" makes a condition "acceptable." Indeed, you would almost have to advocate a position in which "born gay" would be grounds for abortion.
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