Posted on 08/13/2004 9:36:00 AM PDT by IdaBriggs
Hello. I am hoping you can help me.
I am trying to "reach out" to your side of the world in an effort to help each side understand the other. I apologize in advance if I offend or upset any of you, because that is NOT my intention. I hope by putting my "real name" on this post, you will view what I am about to say in the sincere way I mean it.
I am somewhat frightened of you.
Again, I apologize if I am offending, but I thought you should know about it. I also know I am not alone in my feelings about you because I have talked with other people who feel the same way. We think you are trying to impose your religion and way of life on the rest of us.
I know most of you are good people. You are kind and generous with your friends, family and neighbors. You help strangers change tires, work as teachers, risk your lives in the service of others -- all things everyone admires, respects and honors. Those of us on "the other side" do the same thing.
But sometimes you talk in painful ways about “evil” as if to associate us with "demons" and "satan" because we don't agree with your path. That is very hurtful, and it makes us feel like you don't really see us as fellow human beings with different understandings of God. I am a gardener by hobby, and not always a very good one. My husband likes to tease me about "killing plants" instead of growing them because sometimes I over water or put too much fertilizer on them, yet every year I keep trying, and gradually, my garden is starting to become beautiful. I love roses in particular, and am reminded every day how wonderful God is because He made so many different kinds – I have three different red roses alone, and each one is perfect! I have seven different colors of Petunias, and use them to explain how God loves people of all colors to my neighbor's children. I guess that is why I believe you, who scare me so, really do have love in your hearts for all of us, even though sometimes it doesn't seem that way.
The worst times are when the topics of Abortion and Gay Sex come up. No one would ever force you to have an Abortion or indulge in Gay Sex in America EVER, yet you persist in making these topics of conversation as if they trump all other considerations. The only way I can reconcile this with a rational viewpoint is if I think you believe you are trying to SAVE those who don't believe the way you do from Hell. This seems to be a very loving action on your part, but feels rude and controlling in a not-positive way to the rest of us. Many of us do not believe these things will result in eternal damnation, but are simply part of God’s plan for each individual.
If you are truly horrified by the thought of these things, I don’t know what to say to make it easier for you to understand, but I will still try. I guess it would be like making everyone not wear jewelry or make up because some churches believe adornment is demonstrating vanity; it may end up being something we are all judged by, but it may also simply be a misreading or misinterpretation of the text. I am not saying your adherence to the tenets of your faith is wrong; I am saying other people have a right to love God in their own ways, and our civil laws should not be about defining “sin” but crime.
I say again, I am not meaning to offend. I have a very strong faith in God, and trust him to do the right thing. I don't like hearing people say that God is judging all of America based on who is President; both men have qualities worthy of admiration at some level, and both are interviewing for the job of enforcing our constitution. It demands we keep church and state as separate institutions so that we don't have wars in this country over religion (like they do in Ireland with Catholics and Protestants or in Iraq with Sunni's and Shiites). It demands I respect your right NOT to have an abortion if you don't want one, and NOT to indulge in gay sex if you don't want to, and to follow the teachings of your faith in the way you best understand them. It demands we all work "for the common defense, promote the general welfare and ensure the blessings of liberty for ourselves and our posterity" and on behalf of that, I am reaching out to you to find out how we can frame the debates on these things without heaping scorn and shame upon each other. No matter what the results of the November 2, 2004, election, I personally want all Americans to be proud of our country, and the way we run it.
I know I am already.
In Humble Sincerity, Ida M. Briggs
What one?
And...
I don't think any "Karmic Hugs" are going to save them this time...Yeah, 2002 was bad for them, but this is all about President Bush AND the Supreme Court. There will be at least two of them...
You have a females understanding of God and Politics.
Ida,
God's plan is to throw adulterers, liars, homosexuals, thieves and all sin into the lake of fire. Because you don't want to believe that doesn't mean it won't happen.
Sure, God is a God of love, that doesn't mean, lovey-dovey huggy-kissy love. Love isn't what you feel, love is what you do. God so LOVED the world he GAVE His only Son...
God is a just God and His words are true. He will do as he said he will do. He doesn't care what you believe, He knows what he will do.
God's love means being true to His word and His laws are set. He will not waiver.
Forgiveness and repenting from sin is the only answer. Homosexuality is a sin that is an abomination to God and will be "cleansed" in the lake of fire.
God is not mocked, just because you want some sin to be ok, doesn't mean it is OK with God.
I didn't mean to come off so harsh, I understand as best I can, that you have found solace in your loss through those ideas you posted here.. But, without coming to a deeper understanding of the differrences between Divine Providence and Free Will, you won't have a leg to stand on in an discussion based on those thoughts which give you comfort personally.
What you debate here, has been debated for millenia, it's the absence of the disseminatino of previous generations' knowledge that has left you "open for discussion".
I'm skipping the gay argument here.
A few pertinient questions Ida.
Have you ever posted at this site before?
Do you post at DU?
Have you ever been banned from any website?
Do you think people are stupid?
When management checks your IP address will it show up on the "previously banned" list?
Do you really believe this?
If so, then do you also believe that any time a person dies, that that, too, is an "act of God" -- a crime by Him?
Why would you think that God causes miscarriages?
Do you think that God is responsible when a child drowns?
Or that God is responsible when a baby dies of SID?
Or that God causes some children to die in automobile accidents?
The fact that some pregnancies end in miscarriage does not, it seems to me, mean that God is responsible, as though God were some "great abortionist in the sky". Perhaps I misunderstand your point, though.
Coud you clarify it for me?
Death by natural causes - in the womb or in the retirement home, is an entirely different thing than a person intentionally killing another person.
You do understand that, don't you?
That was almost as good as I Am A Bad American
You have a females understanding of God and Politics.
Thanks for the comic relief interlude.... Now back to your serious pro-choice/pro-life flame war....
I think this might be what you were looking for in the "swing voter" thread, Dan. I see a big difference. I'd be interested in knowing what you think.
When I was in Mosul, we'd get mortared on a regular basis. Mortars are a very random, arbitrary threat; you just never know where the thing's gonna land. The Mad Mortarman of Mosul, as we called him (or them, I guess) was a lousy shot. He couldn't hit the airfield most of the time, much less anything else. The sheer randomness of it left everyone with a sense that at any time, you could be standing in the wrong place, and the Mad Mortarman might accidentally hit you.
I didn't stop wearing my body armor, though. Free will, and the choices you make, directly impact your life. What you do, or fail to do, will have consequences. God may have a plan, but he leaves almost all of the execution of it up to us.
By logic that views abortion as murder, that makes my miscarriages (which were acts of God) a crime by Him, and I * WILL NOT * believe that.
I'm very sorry for your loss. I think, though, that you're trying to attribute human motives to God. All of us will die. Our time on Earth is finite due to the frailty of our physical bodies. That doesn't mean that God is running around murdering people.
The logic that views miscarriages as murder by God would view any death under any circumstance as murder by God. I suppose you could make that case, but you'd have to consult a wiser man than I. I don't buy it, myself. As I see it, humans die when killed by something else, or they die when their bodies fail on their own. God seems to let that system run pretty much unattended.
I'm not sure what you are referring to as "it". Do you mean gay marriage, or homosexuality?
The questions being asked really didn't require an extensive explaination
Wishful thinking, but they won't give up until the Supreme Court throws out thier last challenge.
What this means in practical terms is that "right" and "wrong" have no meaning in the personal realm; and in the public realm they are matters of political debate -- the side with the most votes is "right."
While I'm sure you'd agree with me that "votes" do not equate to "right," in practice that's precisely what you're asking us to buy into.
We, on the other hand, recognize that "right" and "wrong" are real, and important concepts. We recognize that "right" is right, and "wrong" is wrong, no matter how many votes they get. Moreover, the vast majority of us believe that these ideas of "right" and "wrong" are not open to change. Most of us believe that what is truly "right" and "wrong" has been given to us through the Old and New Testaments of the Bible. And, of course, Western Civilization shows that Biblical morality has the added benefit of being demonstrably efficacious in terms of rights and benefits. It is beyond serious question that Western Civilization and the immense benefits it has brought, is built upon that Biblical moral foundation. Without Western Civilization, you, a woman, would very likely get as much respect as women who live in other cultures; that is, little, or none at all. So you, even more than I, owe Biblical morality a rather large debt.
I will assume that you do hold to some fixed ideas of "right" and "wrong." Were it otherwise, there would be no point in talking to you.
So when it comes to something like abortion -- which is nothing more or less than killing an unborn human child -- we can see that it is certainly "wrong." At the same time, we can certainly point out "hard cases," in which it might -- might -- be justified to take one life in deference to another.
However, the vast majority of cases of abortion do not qualify as "hard cases." Instead, they are at root performed for reasons of convenience. Death to one, for the convenience of the other. For example, "I must kill the child within me, because I am in college and want to graduate." That is an excuse of convenience -- not to mention utter selfishness -- and certainly not a "hard case."
Surely you, as a reasonable person, can see how we might find it evil for one person to kill another for the sake of convenience.
Almost worse than the act itself, however, are the outright lies and deceptions of those who are concerned with the so-called "right to choose." Their entire goal in life, it seems, is to obscure the fact I noted above: the abortion industry is primarily about killing one set of humans, for the convenience of another. They do this deliberately, and I have no qualms in calling them evil.
Perhaps you think we would be having a pro choice discussion if it weren't for the 19th ammendment.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.