Free Republic

“It didn’t “rely” on slave labor. Only 5.37% of the White Southern population owned slaves.”

But nearly 40% of the south’s population in 1860 were slaves.

“ And in the 19th century the Southern states were hardly in a dire situation. They started out as by far the richest region of the country.”

Yes and the southern rich invested in slaves and agriculture instead of infrastructure or industry. Basically three crops (rice, cotton & tobacco) held up that entire southern economy. Meanwhile in the north they developed agriculture AND industry. Tobacco was widely grown in the north too along with corn and wheat, oh yeah and peaches.

“the South being stuck with the vast majority of the tariff burden and the North benefitting from federal subsidies all that time.”

Another myth. The vast majority of imported (tariffs) goods coming into the US came in to the ports of Boston and New York for consumption in the north. Imported goods flowed into Charleston, Savannah and New Orleans but at a fraction of what was being imported to the mid Atlantic and New England. In 1857 tariffs were actually lowered by a bill with widespread support in both the North and South. It was not until March 1861 that the Morell Act increased tariffs and by that time Southern states had already begun seceding from the Union.

What Federal subsidies was the north getting exactly ?? All of the canals and railroads built in the north were privately funded or partially funded by individual states. Harbor improvements were Federally funded but the same funding was spent in the early 19th century to improve Southern ports. Perhaps you mean defense spending ??? Well the Federal government was spending money to defend southern ports too (Fortress Monroe, Fort Wool, Fort Sumter, Fort Pulaski, Fort Morgan, Fort Jackson and Fort Jefferson in Florida which was the largest and most expensive Federal construction project of its time).

“if Tobacco and Cotton have the highest profit margins, they are going to attract by far the most investment - not building factories.”

That’s exactly the point. The south was content to stay stuck in first gear and not invest in the future. That is not the Yankee’s fault, you guys own that failure all by yourselves.

Well frankly if the south had not relied on agrarian focused slave labor to fuel their economy and instead had invested in business & industry to tap into their vast natural resources, perhaps they would not have been in the dire situation they found themselves in through the 19th and early 20th centuries. The southern economy with a few exceptions had progressed and diversified very little since the 1790’s. When the Civil War broke out, they had incredible difficulties in arming and supplying their armies because their industrial base was practically non existent. Meanwhile the north was producing war materials throughout their land in major cities and small factory towns. The difference in economic development was stark and heavily in the north’s favor. Not because they had been preparing for war but instead because during peacetime they had been developing business and infrastructure.

But hey it is easier to blame the damned Yankee for those failures than to admit, some southerners had a big hand in them too.

NY state does have a lot of Defense contractors (including just about all the major ones) but I get your point. Have a good one !

“ NY has almost no military facilities. ”

Not entirely correct as a matter of fact it has two major posts and number of smaller ones. Fort Drum (home of the 10th Mountain Division) and the United States Military Academy at West Point.

In addition New York has a huge contingent of Department of Homeland Security (ICE, Border Patrol, Coast Guard) and numerous FAA elements. The Federal government also protects 455 miles of border between New York and Canada.

Agreed !!!

Also some folks don’t realize that a state like New Jersey funds almost 100% of roadway construction and maintenance through state taxes and tolls. It receives almost no Federal funding for highways. Whereas a state like Mississippi only funds about 50% of its highway transportation obligations at the state level and the other 50% is largely funded by Federal Department of Transportation grants or loans.

“I can assure you I don’t benefit a dime from any federal money”

So you never use a public highway, drive across a bridge or turn on electricity ??? All of those have been or are subsidized by Federal government grants or loans to Mississippi.

About the same as it is to have nuclear weapons stored at Earle NWS which is in NJ.

“ They shouldn’t be able to deduct the massive amount in state taxes they pay from their federal taxes because this just offloads their tax burden onto taxpayers in other states”

Your statement is kind of ironic since taxpayers from California, New York and New Jersey have been footing a lot of the bill for taxpayers in other states for decades. It may not be popular to say around here but facts don’t lie and those states send far more to the Federal government in tax revenue than they get back in Federal spending. In New Jersey the per person average works out to about $7,500 more is sent to Washington than comes back to NJ.

Yep I’m Not an online poseur. Unlike too many who never are at a loss to pump up what great Patriots they are and how they are going to crush those darned liberals, but who never seem to really do anything other than post online speeches.

LOL, yeah sure. Everyone is a brave warrior online.

Have fun in your bunker !!!!

“You seem to have no problem with losing your freedom which is God given and constitutionally protected.”

Of course I value freedom but I am smart enough to realize that it is not 1788 anymore. The world has changed, the country has changed and the needs of its citizens have changed. These changes have occurred gradually since the inception of our great republic and for the most part, they reflect the will of the people (right or wrong). The government of 1788 could not govern the country of 2025. We might lament that but it is reality.

Perhaps a little history lesson is in order. You cite 1900 but the first National Reservation was established by President Andrew Jackson in 1832 at Hot Springs, Arkansas and the first NationalPark was actually chartered in 1872. Other small Federally reserved lands in the early 1800’s were established to protect forest areas that provided shipbuilding Timbers. National cemeteries (which by some purists definition are probably unconstitutional also) were initially established in 1861 and if you want to go back to the original Continental Congress, they allocated funds for a monument to General Montgomery in 1776.

So Federal monuments or reservations of some sort have been around for at least 193 years. All this hooting, hollering and chest beating about these things being unconstitutional ignore historical precedent and past Supreme Court decisions.

I hate to break it to you but you lost that argument a long time ago and the Supreme Court has never held that your interpretation (which may be right theoretically), is valid or law of the land.

The Supreme Court and historical precedent disagree with your assessment. Whether right or wrong, you lost the argument on that issue and you lost it well over 150 years ago.

some are so interested in having the Federal government divest it’s land holdings out west, Here is an idea…..

Since taxpayer money was used to buy these lands in the first place, it is long due to repay that debt.

Since the original taxpayers who footed the bill for the Louisiana Purchase (1803), the Onis Treaty (1819), the Treaty of Guadeloupe (1848), Gadsden Purchase (1854), Alaska Purchase (1867) are long dead, perhaps repayment can be made to their descendants.

We can devise a lottery of Federal land. Anyone who can prove they are the direct descendant of an American resident or Native American tribe prior to 1867 gets one lottery share for a land division in Alaska. If your ancestors were here prior to 1854 you also get a lottery share for land in the Gadsen Purchase region, prior to 1848 and you also get a lottery share for Treaty of Guadeloupe land, prior to 1819 and you’re in the running for Onis Treaty land. If your direct ancestors were here before 1803 you get a lottery share for Louisiana Purchase land in addition to all the other lotteries.

Each lottery would be for random but similar plots of Federally owned surplus land in a particular lottery location. Once drawn, the land is yours to develop or sell (after a reasonable waiting period). You (the new owner) of course would be responsible for any applicable property taxes or hazardous materials remediation costs (e.g. abandoned mine clean ups).

Sorry but if your direct ancestors came here after 1867, you do not qualify for any of the lotteries but you could purchase land from a lottery winner once their mandatory holding period has expired.

The Federal Government owned the land before the states even existed. Those lands were generally paid for by US taxpayers. If the states want those lands, let them buy them from the Federal government. Most of these states have been happy letting the Federal government pay the $$$$ to maintain, administer and clean up those lands for the better part of their existence. No free land for those states, make them pay for it. If we are going to give it away, give it to the Indians, it was their land first.

If some are so interested in having the Federal government divest it’s land holdings out west, Here is an idea…..

Since taxpayer money was used to but these lands in the first place, it is long due to repay that debt.

Since the original taxpayers who footed the bill for the Louisiana Purchase (1803), the Onis Treaty (1819), the Treaty of Guadeloupe (1848), Gadsden Purchase (1854), Alaska Purchase (1867) are long dead, perhaps repayment can be made to their descendants.

We can devise a lottery of Federal land. Anyone who can prove they are the direct descendant of an American resident or Native American tribe prior to 1867 gets one lottery share for a land division in Alaska. If your ancestors were here prior to 1854 you also get a lottery share for land in the Gadsen Purchase region, prior to 1848 and you also get a lottery share for Treaty of Guadeloupe land, prior to 1819 and you’re in the running for Onis Treaty land. If your direct ancestors were here before 1803 you get a lottery share for Louisiana Purchase land in addition to all the other lotteries.

Each lottery would be for random but similar plots of Federally owned surplus land in a particular lottery location. Once drawn, the land is yours to develop or sell (after a reasonable waiting period). You then of course would be responsible for any applicable property taxes or hazardous materials remediation costs (e.g. abandoned mine clean ups).

Sorry but if your direct ancestors came here after 1867, you do not qualify for any of the lotteries but you could purchase land from a lottery winner once their mandatory holding period has expired.

The Constitution is not very specific regarding exactly what land the Federal government can own. Especially when the General Welfare clause is thrown in the mix. As for a state like Utah, the Federal government was the original owner of the land and allowed portions of it to be settled. Perhaps Utah would like to buy the rest from the Federal government to repay the original taxpayer cost ?? Perhaps the Federal government should just turn over all that land to an Indian tribe and let them own and administer it.

The states do not generally want this wilderness land. Right now the Federal government pays to administer, patrol and clean up the lands (multiple millions and eventually billions in abandoned mine cleanups alone). Once that land is transferred to state control, the state assumes all financial liabilities and they are smart enough to realize they don’t want nor can they afford those obligations.

The same goes for National Parks and monuments. States usually are trying to get the Federal government to take ownership for the same reasons. They want the Feds to assume all the costs of maintaining those parks and monuments.