Free Republic

President of Iran, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, said at a Summit in Russia yesterday, the following: “The international capitalist order is RETREATING. It is absolutely obvious that the age of empires has ended and its revival will not take place” They have us on the run folks. This is not good.

Actually, there are several versions of what Pastor Niemoller said. I took the version of what Martin Niemöller said that appeared in the Congressional Record, 14, October 1968, page 31636.

I would like to know if others have experienced some of what I write here.

"Of course some passages in the Bible are beyond dispute or interpretation...But the Bible does encourage and, in fact, require interpretation."

Yes, that is true. That is why, when possible, I let the Bible speak for itself BEFORE I make or listen to someone else make an interpretation. The passages that pretribbers believe show that Jesus comes before the Antichrist need MUCH interpretation. The passages where I have shown that shows that the Antichrist comes before Jesus Christ... doen't need any interpretation. It is all very straight forward. I'd rather let the Bible speak for itself rather than let man speak for the Bible...where possible anyway.

"But God speaks of the rapture, and you even say that you believe it will happen. How could it be irrelevant?

Yes, I believe in the rapture. What is irrelevant... is talking about the TIMING of the rapture. We have no clear scriptures that state exactly when this will happen. So lets talk about something that is relevant... as to its "timing." WE have clear indication in scripture that show that the timing of the reign of Antichrist is before the return of Jesus Christ. Once we get the timing of the Antichrist down, from there it may be relevant to talk about the timing of the rapture and etc. John told his readers in 1 John 2:18 that the "Antichrist is coming." Okay...the next question is... WHEN? Do we have any "signpost" or "mile markers" or "landmarks" that show us the timing of his coming. Yes...there are four scriptures that show us that he comes before Jesus Christ.

I am not trying to prove or give my view. I am only showing what the Bible says specifically about these issues. We shouldn't be talking about anyone's view. Because our views are based on assumptions. It is what the Bible specifically says is what is important. WE don't have a specific verse or verses that can clearly show what the timing of the rapture is. But we have verifiable signpost, landmarks and scripture that can help us pinpoint the timing of the Antichrist. We don't with the rapture. So why argue about the rapture. I only mentioned it in my original statement because it was a faulty place to start in talking about the Second Coming. We have no clear scripture supporting the rapture views. The rapture views are irrelevant.

Cedar said, "God's people will be spared from the wrath, but they will still be here on earth."

Ty's comments: What you said is still only an assumption. ANY view as to the timing of the rapture -- are only assumptions. We know that we will be raptured -- but to talk about its timing, without the consideration as to the timing of the Antichrist, are only assumptions. WE have no clear cut scripture that says that we will be raptured, Before, Middle, Pre-wrath (which I assume is right = It will happen at the Sixth Seal, which I believe will be opened up about 2/3 into the Great Tribulation. I can build a very strong case showing that we will be raptured when he comes after the Antichrist but before the wrath of God is poured out - beginning in the Seventh Seal. That is called the Pre-wrath view. But, even though this view, I believe, is built on less assumptions than the other views...it is still an assumption. There is no clear scripture that says this view is right) or Post Tribulation. All we know is that we will be raptured when Jesus Christ returns. And we know, without making assumptions by looking at the four passages of scripture I gave, that he will return after the Antichrist. My whole point in doing all this is to try to show the "Church" that we will experience the persecution of the Antichrist. There is clear scripture that shows this. There is no clear scripture that shows the "Timing" of the "rapture."

The burden of proof is on those who hold to Jesus coming before the Antichrist. Can they show verses that clearly show, without assumptions, that Jesus comes before the Antichrist. I have given clear and precise proof that He comes after the reign of Antichrist. The verses in your #28 are only assumptions of Jesus coming before the Antichrist. You say that the "elect" are those who come to faith during the Tribulation....and that you "fairly see that as being interpreted EITHER way." That is my point. If something can be interpreted "EITHER WAY" than "EITHER WAY" are only ASSUMPTIONS. When, as I have said, Rev. 19 says that Jesus Christ comes from Heaven on a white horse to capture the Antichrist... The meaning is very clear. There is no "Either way" there. That chapter shows that Antichrist was already here on earth before Jesus came from Heaven.

According to Jesus' own words in Matthew 24:24-27...false prophets will declare that Jesus has already returned (even in secret... by the way). Jesus said in verse 27 that you will know whent He returns when we see him come like "lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be." We will see him in the sky before we see him on earth. Revelation 1:7 says that His coming will be with the clouds, and "every eye will see Him..." It will be a grand event. The N.T. writers never wrote about seeing such an event. There must be another meaning to the verses you gave.

#28-- 3. Jesus told his disciples to pray they would escape the Tribulation. In Luke 21:36 He said: "Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen. Remember, even Lot was given a chance to escape Sodom before divine judgment fell.

Ty's comment-- okay…this one was a little bit tougher to explain. Lets do it this way… The above is again ASSUMING that it means that the only way to escape “all that is about to happen” is referring ONLY to a coming of Jesus to rapture the church before the reign of Antichrist. Could there be another meaning? How about this… Another way to look at that is to pray that we will escape, BY ANY MEANS POSSIBLE i.e. flee to the mountains like those in Judea will do in Matthew 24:16, all that is about to happen. There is nothing in Luke 21:36 that shows that this CLEARY shows that Jesus will come before the Antichrist to rapture the church. Let me add, some will disagree with me, but I believe, from this passage, that it will be prudent for Christians, when the Antichrist begins to persecute the church, to try to EXCAPE his persecution so that we will be standing when Jesus comes. Remember...Matthew 24:22 says that unless the Great Tribulation is cut short...no one would be saved. The idea is that the AC will try to destroy all the Christians.

Thanks. I appreciate your verses too.

#28...2. Tribulation judgments are the "wrath of the Lamb." Revelation 6:16 depicts the cataclysmic judgments of the end times as the wrath of Christ. Whereas, Revelation 19:7-9 depicts the Church as the bride of the Lamb. She is not the object of His wrath which is poured out on an unbelieving world.

Ty's comments --Revelation 6:16 is at the opening at the Sixth Seal. Where does it say that this is opened up prior to the coming of Antichrist or the Trib period. This a big time assumption.

Ty's comment on Revelation 19:7-9 -- I have no doubt that the Church has been raptured prior to Jesus coming from Heaven, in this passage (vs.11-14,) to destroy the Antichrist on earth. Nothing here says that they were raptured before the reign of Antichrist or the Trib period. This is only an assumption. Again, in this Revelation passage Jesus is coming from Heaven to capture (v. 20) the Antichrist who is on earth. The Antichrist was already on earth when Jesus came from heaven.

I said, "It simply means that God will protect at least some Christians, who will be like the Philadelphia Church, during the “hour of Trial.”

The other Christians, represented by the other churches in Rev. 2-3, will have to be tested for their faith through persecution.

"If we need endure anything it will be insignificant compared to the eternity we have been promised in his presence"

That is a good attitude to have. I am really enjoying this round of questions and answers.

You said, “You can swat away the weaker arguments, but how do you address the stronger ones? Some of these are among the 10 listed under the heading "REASONS FOR A PRE-TRIBULATION RAPTURE" in my #28 (at the end).”

Lets take a look at the verses you used in #28. For sake of time let me take them one at a time and post them that way too. Remember I, and leaders of Pretrib themselves, say that there is no scripture that supports Jesus coming secretly to rapture the church before the Antichrist. They base their theory on ASSUMPTIONS. Having said that lets look at your verses in #28.


REASONS FOR A PRE-TRIBULATION RAPTURE

1. . In Revelation 3:10, the risen Christ said the Church would be kept from (Literally, "preserved" or "protected out of") the hour of trial, or divine retribution, that is coming on the whole world.

First of all, many Greek scholars DISAGREE with the above translation of the Greek word “ek” = “protected out of.” In fact…. The following many Bible versions translates “ek” as “from” so that it is translated =“ protected FROM THE HOUR OF TRIAL…” The King James, The New King James, The New International Version, The Contemporary English Version, The New American Standard version, The American Standard version, The Good News version and even the New Living versions of the Bible TRANSLATE “ek” as “FROM.” I can’t find a version that uses “out of” for its translation of the Greek word “ek.”
Even if “out of” was correct, it only assumes that its meaning is that Jesus comes before the Trib period and the Antichrist. The Greek word translating “ek” to “From” certainly assumes that the meaning is that this means that Jesus is coming to rapture the church before the Antichrist. It simply means that God will protect at least some Christians, who will be like the Philadelphia Church, during the “hour of Trial.”

I have read statements by Pretrib leaders that state that there is no scriptural support for the pretrib position of Jesus coming before the Antichrist to rapture the church. They only build their case on what they believe are "inferred" or "assumed" meanings of scripture. For example they use Mark 13:34-37, and Titus 2:13 as "clear" examples that Christ could come back at anytime before the Antichrist (Rapture Under Attack by Tim Lahaye. Multnomah Publisher, pg. 105-106). They point out that since it was taught that the Christians are to "wait and "watch" for the return of Christ and not the Antichrist...suggest that this teaches that Jesus comes back, before the Antichrist, to rapture the Saints (If that is the case then why was the N.T. church told so much about the Antichrist and his activities?) Their argument is that since we are to be watching for Jesus and not the Antichrist "very clearly" teaches that Jesus comes first. That is nonsense. For example, I am waiting for my wife to come back from the office. I know that she will come back in a certain time frame, but that doesn't mean that other events aren't going to happen before she comes back. When it comes to the return of Christ...it is much easier to discern. We know he is going to come back in a certain time frame. We have specific passages that says certain things have to happen first. There are specific passages of scripture that state that he will return after the Antichrist is already here. and not only that he is already here, but he is doing certain specific things i.e abomination of desolation (Matt. 34:15). Or in Rev. 19 where the Antichrist is gathering an army, on earth, to go against Jesus Christ who is coming down from Heaven. The frame of mind of the early Christians was not like ours. Much of the early church was already going through persecution. So the rise of the Antichrist didn't mean so much to them. The fact that the Antichrist was going to make "war against the Saints" only challenged the N.T. Church. They would rather fight...than to "CUT AND RUN." We need to have that same attitude.

My point is that Jesus only comes ONCE...and that is after the Antichrist is here on earth.

"None of your verses addresses the timing of the rapture."

That is my point. Why are Christians so focused on the rapture when we have no clear teaching in scripture as to its timing. Why not focus on the timing of the Antichrist where we have very clear teaching as to its timing. That is that he comes and is here on earth before Jesus Christ comes back.
I call it a secret rapture because that is a term I have heard Pretribbers use. They say that Jesus comes before the pretrib to rapture the church in secret. No noise and no one knows or sees him come. Maybe that is why the Lord gave us no scriptures supporting the Pretrib coming of Christ.... Shhhh..."because its a secret."

I know that it is contrary to what you and many have been taught. I was taught the same way. When it came right down to it...I was only basing my old Pretrib rapture theories on what other pretrib people taught me. As I, and the Bible, said, let God be true and every man a liar. Instead of listening to what "men" said, I decided to listen to what God said. "Men" told me that the secret coming of Christ was only based on "assumptions." I didn't want to live my future or plan my future on assumptions. So I decided to find out what the Bible clearly taught about such an important time. I found out, with an open mind, that the Word of God Shows SPECIFICALLY that the Antichrist comes before Jesus Christ.

You said, "That anti-Christ appears before Christ comes back to defeat him (anti-Christ) is not in dispute." That is correct. What is in dispute is that Jesus Christ comes secretly before the Antichrist. You, nor anyone, can prove that with scripture. Even the great thinkers of the pretrib rapture will say, and have said, that there is no scripture that proves a secret coming before Antichrist comes. They only use inferred or assumed passages of scripture to try to prove their, and your, theory. Why base such an important time in history on assumptions while we have clear cut scriptures that show that the Antichrist comes before Jesus Christ.