Free Republic

perhabs you should vote for your football players or coaches. They often show a lot of efficiency and a very well strategic organisation.

Now that's an idea! :-)

stefan10 I pretty much agree with your view on the problems of Italy, so I won’t refute you in any way.

The point of discussion here is this: you blame Berlusconi for these problems, and that’s really unfair.

Berlusconi tried to reform Italy with a comprehensive constitutional reform (the first time in 60 years!), but the Italians people silly rejected it via a referendum. So what’s Berlusconi got to do? Abolish referendum and democracy?

As for budget numbers, the year 2005 was awful but numbers came back to normalcy pretty soon.

As for the €, I thank God to be in the Eurozone, I was just pointing out that responsibility for bleak economic performance lies with Italian entrepreneurs and not Berlusconi.

In the end, I think yor acquentainces in Italy are “blame-the -government-first” kinda guys or simply leftist Berlusconi-haters.

So you think the economic policy under Berlusconi was a success and helpful for italy?

At least he did not kill me with taxes

i can also lower taxes at the price of huge deficits.

so huge that the EU sanctioned Germany but NOT Italy for not meeting deficit criteria, and now the decifit is pretty much under control

He solved the “problems” of your unbelievable election system and helps italy to become more stable and could start to solve the real problems?

YEP: now we have a strong government, no communists in parliament, and 4 political groups in either houses of parliament (from more that 20 before!)

If Berlusconi is the best thing someone can get in italy i do not have much hope for your country.

I do not have much hope either, but that has nothing to do with Berlusconi. Simply put, the Euro currency is "tailor-made" for Germany, and the other EuroZone countries must keep up with german productivity level or perish. Unfortunately, our industrial base specializes in stuff not as much valued as german one: food, clothes, etc. The only thing Berlusconi can do is to liberalize the job market (which he has done) and the economy (which he hasnt done) but it is up to the Italian entrepeneurs to change their specialization in order to keep up with germany.

Anyway, it is funny that you blame Berlusconi for his alleged will to devalue the Euro while your government it is doing just that with the dollar.

Sorry for your relatives, but that is no evidence of widespread anti-americanism in Italy.

The point is: yes, we have folks who dont love America, and yes, anti-Americanism is pretty cool for the leftist “intellighenzia” but all in all Italy is not exactly the most anti-american country in Europe: we watch tons of american movies, we listens to american music, we put english words in our speech to make it “cooler”, and our leftist party is called Democratic Party... LOL

Sorry if you feel hated but hey, you live in America, so don’t complain! ;-)

How did he win? Did Italians just get sick of the left?

YEP: leftist government just taxed Italians to death. Besides, Italians never fell in love with the left to begin with: when Berlusconi was sacked, he lost the Lower House for just 24.000 votes, but won the Senate for more than 200.000. Leftist government was pushed ahead by unelected senators.

certainly don’t think there’s a huge pro-American movement there....

Huh? Young folks are leftist like everywhere else, but where I live (the north) conservative parties (Berlusconi + Lega Nord) have more than 60% of electoral preferences.

Lots of people trying to get on/stay on the public dole, and not enough people being industrious to keep things afloat. Of course, those who are hardworking get their legs cut out from under them by regulation and other BS.

Agree 100%. It's the same old story: the welfare state rewards the unproductive fellows and punish the productive ones. Besides we have an awful amount of regulation. Nonetheless, people in the north are still very much hard-working: here in the north is not uncommon to have 3 jobs...the problem lies with the south that's it.

Italy needs some cultural reform more than anything.

And Berlusconi is responsible for that because...?

I agree that Italy has quite some problem but you totally miss the point about Berlusconi: he is a truly conservative guy.

I mean, he is conservative on EVERYTHING: values, taxation, foreign policiy. His record on these issues is indisputable.
What the heck are you talking about?

Besides, who would you vote for? A party whose government freed tons of criminals in his first important decreee?
A party whose government just taxed Italians to death?
(in case u dont know, i m talking about our own Democratic Party)

I also like that guy, but i repeat that no one knows: Berlusconi repeatedly refused to answer questions about future head of chambers and ministers. That's because he did not want to put all his card on the table, and now he just have to discuss this matter with Bossi and other prominent politicians in his party.

Parliament is scheduled to open on March 29, so we just have to wait.

Who will be President of the Italian Senate?

Nobody knows yet but one thing is for sure: both chambers will be headed by Berlusconi supporters.

The League brought down the 1994 Berlusconi government by withdrawing from it, but served for a full five-year term as part of Mr Berlusconi's administration between 2001 and 2006.

and that's why "fear over anti-immigration party" has no motivation whatsoever: "Lega Nord" and Berlusconi party share exactly the same values i.e. conservative values. The reason why in 1994 Lega Nord betrayed was that leftist President Scalfaro assured Bossi -the head of Lega Nord- that Berlusconi was finished as prosecutors was soon to put him in jail.

That was a lie, and now Berlusconi is alive and kicking, while his party has 4 times the votes of Lega Nord. So speculations about future Berlusconi government instability are pure BS

"The big news is that the Communists are gone, for the first time since the end of the Second World War. Really gone. They didn't win a single seat in either chamber."

I really cannot express how tremendously happy I am today: no communists in parliament and a strong convervative goverment? Whoa, is that really Italy, my home beloved Country? That's great! Awesome! Fantastic! Now Italy and USA can be friend again!

Also, I want to thank Mr Veltroni, the loser: thank you for getting rid of the communists...you're quite late, but better late than ever!

VIVA ITALIA VIVA USA

That is awesome -- no communists in either legislature. Amazing. Plus, Berlusconi clearly has a large majority in both chambers, so he's going to be there for a while.

Yes, it is really a great day for Italy: no communists and strong government? Whoa, it's like a dream come true, I honestly would have never thought to see this happen :-))

mostly its about the economy, as the leftist government just taxed Italians to death...but illegal immigration and related crime is also decisive...you know the first important decision made by Prodi administration was to free tons of criminals because prisons were too crowded and the living conditions there were “unhuman”...

personally it is the second issue that “forced” me to vote for “Lega Nord”, a member of Berlusconi coalition

In historical term it is indeed recent history.

Thanks most to the firm opposition of the Pope-King, Italy has manage to unite Herself only very recently. The Kingdom if Italy was born on 17 March 1861, less than 150 years ago. We conquered the Papal States and entered Rome on 20 September 1870. Since then the Pope has declared himself a "detainee" of the Kingdom, has refused any offer to settle the dispute with the King Vittorio Emanuele II and has fought very actively against the new Kingdom.

Among other provocative actions, the Pope called the Vatican Council I where the dogma of "infallibility of the Pope" was established. In addition, he threatened to excommunicate every Roman Catholic who dared to vote in the national elections.

As a result, Italian Catholics were asked to decide between loyalty to the Pope and loyalty to the Home Country.

The dispute between Italy and the Pope was not settled until a new creeping leader entered the political arena: Mr Benito Mussolini, the Duce of Italy. Mussolini and the Pope signed the so-called "Lateran Pacts" in 1929 which set the birth of a new "personal" state for the Pope, the Vatican, and established the Roman Catholic as the state religion of Italy. Of course that was a huge political victory for the dictator Mussolini as he gained the support of every Catholic in Italy.

Ok, that's enough, if you want more just ask.

Many thanx to everybody, these posts on FR are always very informative.

Keep up the good job!

Not good enough. Please retract your statement.

Ok, since I am not an historian and I am not very well informed on this issue I RETRACT my statement.

My whole point is that I would not be very surprised at knowing that the Vatican is bent on doing the interests of the RCC and in doing so is bent on fighting the rival Christian Churches.

That's only common sense, pal. But again, I retract my statement as I don't have enough proof.

Whoopty-doo. So you've traded your Catholic heritage for filthy lucre.

If that Catholic heritage of ours means that the Pope is the King of the "Papal States" and He is going to do anything in order to retain his TEMPORAL power and in doing so He is going to fight and hamper the Italian secular republic then I don't care much about that...heritage.

But if you're talking about such things as "Love thy neighbor as thyself" or "give unto Caesar what is Caesar's and unto God what is God's" then I cherish that heritage.

But in the end my point is that I admire the US Republic which is based on a strictly SECULAR constitution which guarantees every US citizens the right of freedom of religion and also freedom from temporal power of one particular Church. Finally, I think that for the Roman Catholic Church to have a state at all is NOT good for the Church itself, as RCC should be focused on the spiritual life of the people and not on temporal issues like gov't of a state.

Meanwhile, Italians can't be bothered to have children anymore and have embraced the worst aspects of secular hedonism. All the while being invaded by Islamics who have no interest in your secular society at all. I reference what's happening in Holland--that's going to be Italy 20-30 years down the road, pal.

These are all very dramatic problems and I don't have easy solutions. And you're right pointing at a lack of faith as the main cause of all this mess. What I can say for sure is that Italians have a long tradition at being mere CINOs (Catholics in the name only) and Catholic Faith is much more alive in foreign countries. But why is that? Perhaps the fact that we used to have to deal with a very powerful Pope-King has something to do about it...

Cheers

I don't have proof, only my logic.

It is logic to think that the Vatican is happy when the Roman Catholicism is spreading and the rival Orthodox Church is hurting.

If you want proof read the posts of DTA, although I admit that I don't know much about that single episode of WWII

Considering what's happened to Italy since they decided to go the secular route you may soon have to change your name to "a freedom-loving resident of hesperiastan"

I hate to tell ya that you are completely OFF TARGET here.
You know what really happened to Italy since She's been a truly secular republic (like the good ole USA)? Italy has turned from a lousy third-world country to a G7 country.

Look, I am not against religion at all, but sure I am against THEOCRACY like Saudi Arabia or Iran or EVEN the Vatican. You're worried about Islamic invading my country?
Well I am worried too. But I am worried as long as these muslim folks want to create an islamic theocracy here. If those muslims decided to go secular, then I'd be OK with them.