Posted on 01/04/2019 8:20:14 AM PST by Salvation
Rest on Flight to Egypt, by Caravaggio (1597)
At Christmas we celebrate the Word becoming Flesh, but what does this mean for us today? Fundamentally, it means that our faith is about things that are tangible. As human beings, we have bodies. We have a soul that is spiritual, but it is joined with a body that is physical and material. Hence, it is never enough for our faith to be only about thoughts, philosophies, concepts, or ideas. Their truth must touch the physical part of who we are. Our faith must become flesh; it has to influence our behavior. If that is not the case, then the Holy Spirit, speaking through John, has something to call us: liars!
Therefore, away with sophistry, rationalizations, and intentions. Our faith must become flesh in the way we act and move. God’s love for us in not just a theory or idea. It is a flesh and blood reality that can be seen, heard, and touched. The Word of God and our faith cannot simply remain on the pages of a book or in the recesses of our intellect. They must leap off the pages of the Bible and the Catechism and become flesh in the way we live our life, in the decisions we make, and in the way we use our body, mind, intellect, and will.
Consider the following passage from the liturgy of the Christmas Octave:
The way we may be sure that we know Jesus is to keep his commandments. Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoever keeps his word, the love of God is truly perfected in him. This is the way we may know that we are in union with him: whoever claims to abide in him ought to walk just as he walked (1 John 2:3ff).
Note some teachings that follow from it:
Faith is incarnational. What a practical man John is! Faith is not an abstraction; it is not merely about theories and words on a page. It is about a transformed life; it is about truly loving God and making His commandments manifest in the way we live. It is about loving our neighbor. True faith is incarnational. That is to say, it takes on flesh in our very “body.”
Too many people spout the phrase, “I’ll be with you in spirit.” Perhaps an occasional absence is understandable but after a while the phrase rings hollow. Showing up physically and doing what we say is an essential demonstration of our sincerity. We are body persons and our faith must include a physical, flesh-and-blood dimension.
Keeping the commandments is a sure sign. John said that The way we may be sure that we know Jesus is to keep his commandments. Now be careful of the logic here. The keeping of the commandments is not the cause of faith; it is the fruit of it. It is not the cause of love; it is its fruit.
In Scripture, “knowing” refers to than an intellectual understanding. It refers to deep, intimate, personal experience of the thing or person. It is one thing to know about God; it is quite to “know the Lord.”
In this passage, John is saying that in order to be sure we have deep, intimate, personal experience of God, we must change the way we live. An authentic faith, an authentic knowing of the Lord, will change our behavior in such a way that we keep the commandments as a fruit of that authentic faith and relationship with Him. It means that our faith becomes flesh in us. Theory becomes practice and experience. It changes the way we live and move and have our being.
For a human being, faith cannot be a mere abstraction. In order to be authentic, it must become flesh and blood. In a later passage, John uses the image of walking: This is the way we may know that we are in union with him: whoever claims to abide in him ought to walk just as he walked (1 John 2:6). Although walking is a physical activity, it is also symbolic. The very place we take our body is physical, but it is also indicative of what we value, what we think.
Liars – John went on to say, Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not keep his commandments is a liar. This is strong language! Either we believe and thus keep the commandments, or we are lying about really knowing the Lord and we fail to keep the commandments.
Don’t all of us struggle to keep the commandments fully? John seems so “all or nothing” in his words, but his point is clear. To know the Lord fully is never to sin (cf 1 John 3:9). If we know him imperfectly, we still experience sin. Hence, the more we know him (remember the definition of “know”) the less we sin. If we still sin, it is a sign that we do not know Him enough.
It is not really John who speaks too absolutely; it is we who do so. We say things like “I have faith,” “I am a believer,” “I love the Lord,” and “I know the Lord.” Perhaps we would be more accurate if we said, “I am growing in faith,” “I am striving to be a better believer,” or “I’m learning to love and know the Lord better and better.” If we do not, then we risk lying. Faith is something we grow in.
Many in the Protestant tradition reduce faith to an event such as answering an altar call or accepting Christ as “personal Lord and savior.” We Catholics do it too. Many Catholics think that all they need to do is be baptized; they don’t bother to attend Mass faithfully as time goes on. Others claim to be “loyal” even “devout” Catholics yet dissent from important Church teachings. Faith is about more than membership. It is about the way we walk, the decisions we make.
Without this harmony between faith and action, we live a lie. We lie to ourselves and to others. The bottom line is that if we really come to know the Lord more and more perfectly, we will grow in holiness, keep the commandments, and be of the mind of Christ. We will walk just as Jesus walked and our claim to have faith will be the truth, not a lie.
Faith and works cannot be separated. This passage does not claim that salvation is by works alone. The keeping of the commandments is not the cause of saving or of real faith. Properly understood, the keeping of the commandments is the result of saving faith actively present and working within us. It indicates that the Lord is saving us from sin and its effects.
The Protestant tradition erred in dividing faith and works. In the 16th century, Protestants claimed that we are saved by “faith alone.” Faith is never alone. It always brings effects with it.
Our brains can get in the way here and tempt us to think that just because we can distinguish or divide something in our mind we can do so in reality, but that is not always the case.
Consider, for a moment, a flame. It has the qualities of heat and light. We can separate the two in our mind but not in reality. I could never take a knife and divide the heat of the flame from its light. They are so interrelated as to be one reality. Yes, heat and light in a flame are distinguishable theoretically, but they are always together in reality.
This is how it is with faith and works. Faith and works are distinguishable theoretically, but the works of true faith and faith itself are always together in reality. We are not saved by works alone or by faith alone; they are together. John teaches here that knowing the Lord by living faith is always accompanied by keeping the commandments and walking as Jesus did.
Therefore, faith is incarnational. The Word became flesh and dwelt among us, really and physically. Similarly, our own faith must become flesh in us, in our actual behavior.
Enjoy this incarnational Christmas carol:
Verbum caro factum est The Word was made flesh
Porque todos hos salveis. for the salvation of you all.
Y la Virgen le dezia: And the Virgin said unto him:
‘Vida de la vida mia, ‘Life of my life,
Hijo mio, ¿que os haria, what would I [not] do for you, my Son?
Que no tengo en que os echeis?’ Yet I have nothing on which to lay you down.’
O riquezas terrenales, O worldly riches,
¿No dareis unos pañales will you not give some swaddling clothes
A Jesu que entre animals to Jesus who is born among the animals
Es nasçido segun veis? as you can see?
That would be me bro. 👍🤣😁😂
Kelsey, how’d you end up in Australia, or are you a native there?
Sorry melsec. Autocorrect changed your name to Kelsey!
Which is just what will happen at the great white throne judgment that occurs after the Lord returns, which is the time period this punishment occurs, versus commencing at death, as in Purgatory. Thus Scriptural eschatology is against you.
When the Lord returns believers will also be rewarded at the judgment seat of Christ, "every man according to his own labor" - the quantity and quality of what he helped build the church - with loss of rewards - and the Lord's grievous displeasure - being the only suffering mentioned after this life.
And with the only transformational change being that of the believer resurrection and constitutional conformity to Christ.
And if Cath. Purgatory was what the believers then that would be just as manifestly taught as the judgment seat of Christ - which is not it - and the believer resurrection, rather than you having to attempt to extrapolate it out of unclear texts as Luke 12.
Furthermore, in contrast, besides the time period being contrary to Purgatory the only location mentioned in Luke 12:41-48 is that of being appointed his portion with the unbelievers, while all the servants are those who "prepared not" or who knew not, neither of which describes believers walking in saving, obedient faith. Against which Hebrews 10:25-39 warns.
Try to place the teaching from Jesus nto the context of before the Cross or after The Cross. Big hnt: Did any Hebrew / Israelite gain salvation by keepng the law their entire life?
Another big hint: What did Jesus tell His audience was the work God requires as found in John 6? And contrast that, if you wish, with what He told His Apostles to do AFTER His Resurrection?
Avoiding even the appearance of evil I suppose. Good on VP Pence
Whenever the LORD comes for His servants; one cannot avoid the scripture in which the Messiah clearly taught three levels of punishment for His servants that did not watch (their behavior).
- which once again as said and ignored, does not correspond to Purgatory in which punishment begins at death, and is also for making souls good enough to enter Heaven
In further contrast, as said and ignored, not being prepared or being ignorant of the Lord's will is not correspondent to persevering saving faith.
And as said and ignored, the only location mentioned in this discourse having one's potion with the unbelievers, which thus is correspondent to the final judgment, in which souls are "judged every man according to their works." (Rev 20:13)
Thus Luke 41-48 simply cannot be speaking of Purgatory even on the basis of basic eschatology. Reiterating your desperate apologetic only makes its specious nature more manifest.
Suffer loss, not suffer loss of rewards. Suffer loss, not suffer loss of rewards. Look how ζημιόω to damage, suffer loss is used in the scriptures. It is not loss of rewords. Six occurrences lose his own soul lose his own soul be cast away he shall suffer loss ye might receive damage I have suffered the loss
Which is more isolationist sophistry, for not only does "suffer loss" means "loss" in the majority of cases, but context tells us not only what is being subjected to the fire, but what the loss refers to, which is rewards:
Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward . (1Co 3:13-14)
Thus this desperate attempt by you is also - by the mercy and grace of God - exposed for what it is us.
Just believe the text; three levels of punishment when the LORD judges His servants who did not watch (their behavior).
Just believe the text; three levels of punishment when the LORD judges His servants who did not watch (their behavior) simply cannot be Purgatory as it is only correspondent to the final judgment, while even if it referred to 1 Co. 3, that is also disallowed even just on the basis of it not occurring until the Lord returns, besides being works being burned up, not character defects, and being saved despite this loss, not because of them.
The most severe punishment; no Once Saved Always Saved for the one who believes in being saved but did not watch (his works).
Which is what i affirmed, and does not hep your argument. Further reiterations will not make it valid, and you are very close to simply being ignored.
And just what how does that help you? You need to prove that loss does not refer to the opposite of gaining rewards, which is what the context shows it refers to.
Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour. For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building. According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; (1Co 3:8-12)
Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. (1Co 3:13-15)
The material one helped build the body of Christ with is tested, and if it endures, then the builder will receive a reward at that time, "the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth." (Revelation 11:18. KJV)
And if the material cannot endure the fire, then it is burned, and the builder suffers loss.
All of which occurs at the Lord's return, (1Cor. 3:8ff; 4:5; 2Tim. 4:1,8; Rev.11:18; Mt. 25:31-46; 1Pt. 1:7; 5:4) with believers who are already with the Lord, not in Purgatory, (Phil 1:23; 2Cor. 5:8 [“we”]; Heb, 12:22,23; 1Cor. 15:51ff'; 1Thess. 4:17) who is at the right hand of the Father, thus neither personal impurities are being consumed so that one may be with God, nor does this occur at the death of the believer. Thus 1 Cor. 3 is simply not speaking of Purgatory. Even the notes to youy NAB bible recognize this.
The text of ⇒ 1 Cor 3:15 has sometimes been used to support the notion of purgatory, though it does not envisage this.
Note the next portion which was left out ... and certainly fits two of the three types of punishment for disciples as taught by the Messiah in Luke's passage. In those two types (stripes), the disciple is still saved, yet as by fire.
Again, only kind of disciples here are those who did not prepare themselves, and the ignorant, both of whom do not correspond to those walking in obedient saving faith (Hebrew 3:6,12,14) and the only location described her is that of being with believers. No reward at all is mentioned for this class. Thus all you have for support of Purgatory is the principal of punishment corespondent to accountability, which is what we see in Rv. 20:11-15, and would also be a factor in loss or gaining of rewards at the judgment seat of Christ after the Lord's return for believers who are already with the Lord, and which is simply is not corespondent to ongoing "purifying punishments" now in order for one to enter Heaven. And which reality is what the epistles to the church would treach if that was what believers were to look forward to, rather than being with Christ in the presence of the Father.
Now i understand your devotion to Rome and how hard some RCs vainly try to establish RC traditions of men by Scripture, even though that is not to be the basis for our assurance if became faithful RCs, but you need to realize that your desperate untenable attempts are actually an argument against being a RC, and for being s Scripture evangelical. Give it up. i will be back tonite.
And as said and ignored, the only location mentioned in this discourse having one's potion with the unbelievers, which thus is correspondent to the final judgment, in which souls are "judged every man according to their works." (Rev 20:13)>
The above post reads like it is the process of interpreting a text or portion of text in such a way that the process introduces one's own presuppositions, agendas, or biases into and onto the text.
What?! That is EXACTLY what you are doing, as shown. For having one's portion with the unbelievers, and being punished after the Lord's return according to one's deeds and accountability as in Lk. 12:41-48, is indeed clearly correspondent to the final judgment since it occurs after the Lord return, and souls are "judged every man according to their works
In contrast, you are the one introducing "one's own presuppositions, agendas, or biases into and onto the text" by making a judgment and punishment which occurs after the Lord's return into one that occurs before the Lord's return, and which souls are experiencing now! In addition to having one's portion with the unbelievers not being correspondent to a ongoing punishment of believers, nor is he "who prepared not himself, neither did according to his will" correspondent t walking in saving faith.
All disciples should be careful not to ignore or give short shrift what the Messiah said about watching one's behavior.
Indeed, for in contrast to him "who prepared not himself, neither did according to his will" "Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end." (Hebrews 3:6. KJV) "he that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death." (Revelation 2:11. KJV) These are they of penitent characteristic obedience faith, who repent when they are convicted of the opposite.
Here is another way to comprehend the parable: He was speaking to ISRAEL and theiractions as God’s servants with God’s data input, and the results of that data with some using it to inform THE WORLD around them, some not so faithful to HIS directions to them, and some who just out of pride held themselves to be God’s chosen people while condemning the rest of humankind. ... Odd that a Catholic who believes he can earn salvation would avoid that explanation so vigorously ...
The last line of your post, do you understand where that Bema Seat is? It is not on Earth, it is in HEAVEN. Your religion has got you knotted up that you post verses which contradict your assertions yet you are totally unable to see you have contradicted yourself!
I've had a few here just presume I'm a man even though I share information about myself in my Profile that clarifies. There have been some Roman Catholics here who refused to even dialogue with me once they found out I am a woman. They toss out the silly excuse that St. Paul teaches "women should not teach nor usurp authority over a man" as why they won't engage even though this isn't church, they aren't my husband and they HAVE submitted to women as teachers in many areas! If my gender was not known, there was no reluctance to dialoguing on a thread.
I think you should apologize for mocking Elsie and implying he might be a homosexual/transexual based on his screen name. That's just dumb and uncalled for! Discuss the topic, not the person - whom you do not know.
#metoo! ;o)
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