Posted on 03/22/2014 1:35:03 PM PDT by PhilipFreneau
Was "Babylon The Great" a Symbolic Name for Jerusalem?
Recall that Jesus said:
"… it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem" (Luke 13:33.)
That is a very important statement to keep in mind when considering the following passages: and later in the same chapter of Luke, Jesus added:
"…I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute: That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation; From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation." (Luke 11:47-51 KJV)
That is pretty clear. Jerusalem is responsible for the blood of all the prophets, and at least some of the apostles. There is more in Matthew:
"Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in yoursynagogues, and persecute them from city to city: That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation." (Mat 23:34-36 KJV)
So, Jerusalem was not only responsible for the blood of all the prophets (and some apostles;) but for all the righteous blood shed upon the earth. And vengeance for that blood was required of the generation that Jesus was speaking to.
We all know that is exactly what happened within that generation: the Roman armies completely destroyed Jerusalem and the temple in 70 AD, fulfilling this prophecy by Jesus:
"And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down." (Mat 24:1-2 KJV)
But how do those verses compare to those on Babylon the Great found in the Revelation?
In the Revelation, Babylon the Great is also called the great whore, the mother of harlots, the great city, and the woman. In the context of blood responsibility, John mentions this:
"And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration." (Rev 17:6, KJV)
The first martyr of Jesus was Stephen, if I recall correctly; and there were many more. The next chapter reveals additional facts:
"And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth." (Rev 18:24, KJV)
But, according to Jesus, Jerusalem is supposed to be responsible for the blood of all the prophets; and Jerusalem is responsible for all the righteous blood? Yet, in the following verse we see that God avenged the blood of the apostles and prophets on Babylon the Great.
“Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.” (Rev 18:20, KJV)
And recall the first scripture at the top:
"… it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem" (Luke 13:33.)
So what do we know:
1. Jerusalem killed many of the apostles, yet their blood was avenged on Babylon the Great
2. Jerusalem is responsible for the blood of all the prophets, yet their blood was avenged on Babylon the Great.
3. Jerusalem was responsible for the blood of all the righteous, yet Babylon the Great was responsible for "all that were slain on the earth."
There are many other references in the Revelation that tie Babylon the Great to old Jerusalem. This is one of many:
"And their dead bodies [the two witnesses] shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified." (Rev 11:8 KJV)
It seem our Lord Jesus Christ was killed in both Babylon the Great and Jerusalem. It is difficult to imagine Babylon the Great being any other city than Jerusalem.
Philip
Quote- I have no idea what that means...
It just means the world uses timekeeping not from our Creator- or we use one piece of God’s clock like the sun or the moon by itself and call it time..
Today in the world, it’s woden’s day, the 26th day in Mar’s month...
We are really in God’s twelfth month if we counted.
our concept of day, week, month, year which we could get from scripture, we instead get from the world...
When I read about where the names for the days of the week and some of the months came from for the Gregorian calendar (names of gods and goddesses in legends) then it seemed to be less attractive as a timekeeping tool for me...
The world system works well with Moons’ day, Tiw’s day, Woden’s day, Thor’s day or Frigg’s day. Those are the five business work days the world gives us..
And each religious group can pick their own sabbath day..
I think the battle of jericho convinced me of His calendar more than anything.
Quote- Why? We are judged by our works; not by how we interpret the Revelation. Well, if we interpret it in a way that gives us an advantage, that would be an evil work for which we will be judged unfavourably; the opposite if we interpret it to help others, and not ourselves. If we try to interpret it for the sake of interpreting it, that doesn’t amount to a hill of beans.
-if we go through revelation and say ‘mission accomplished’ or ‘fulfilled fully’, I see that as dangerous not because of interpretation but because it may cause people to be ‘asleep’ or one of those foolish virgins...
Trying to interpret it with a view of ‘today’ should be our focus as we are still here and all the jots and tittles aren’t done yet -
and it is the last message we’ve received..
hopefully heeding the warning not to add or subtract from it..
We may have hundreds of years to go.. we may have only days left.
The only opinion that counts on interpretation is His...He knows exactly where we are on His timekeeping and we can really only guess ..
And brother, let’s thank God for His Mercy and Grace in the face of our finite studies of our infinite Creator!
We Christians are not judged by our works. Jesus said what the works of God are.
“Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.” John 6:28-29
We Christians are in the dispensation of grace.
Ephesians 3:1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, 2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
We are not under the works of the law but are saved by grace through faith alone.
Rom. 3:28-30, "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30 since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one."
If we were judged on works it would no longer be grace.
Rom. 11:6, "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace."
You people who would have us back under works nullify the the grace of God.
Gal. 2:21, I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.
Here’s the quote of what you said.
Quote: “LOL! No one believes the way I do: no one I am aware of.”
If no one believes the way you do after all of the scholarship over the last thousands of years it is logical that it’s not all of them who are wrong.
How is that any different than those who think they are going to be raptured? I have seen many complacent premillennialists and dispensationalists.
But none of that matters. We should interpret the scripture as it is written; not how we want it to be, or how we think it should be.
>>>We may have hundreds of years to go.. we may have only days left.<<<
Or, we maybe everyone will live happily ever after.
"One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever." (Ecc 1:4 KJV)
"And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations." (Rev 22:1-2 KJV)
When all is said and done, there are still nations, and there are still kings (Rev 21:24.) Gloom and doom futurists do not have a lock on the interpretation of the prophecy: far from it. I, personally, am an optimist.
Philip
“Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.” John 6:28-29<<<
>>>We Christians are in the dispensation of grace.<<<
>>>Ephesians 3:1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, 2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:<<<
>>>We are not under the works of the law but are saved by grace through faith alone.<<<
Much violence has been done to the interpretation of "works." We are not judged by the works of the law, as you stated; but we are most definitely judged according to our works. If you believe Jesus, you will also believe him when he said this:
"For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works." (Mat 16:27 KJV)
"Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven." (Mat 5:16 KJV)
"They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham." (John 8:39 KJV)
(Note: Abraham was not under the law.)
And what is the last thing Jesus gave us regarding judgement?
"And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be." (Rev 22:12 KJV)
>>>Rom. 3:28-30, "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30 since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one."<<<
If we were judged on works it would no longer be grace.<<<
That is not correct. We are judged by works. Jesus and the apostles said it many times. We are not judged according to the works of the LAW. There is a big difference between "works" and "works of the law."
>>>Rom. 11:6, "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace."<<<
>>>You people who would have us back under works nullify the the grace of God.<<<
>>>Gal. 2:21, I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.<<<
All that is all about works of the LAW. That is comparing apples and oranges! The "law" that will not be part of our judgement is found in the books of Moses, primarily in Leviticus. There are over 600 laws! The works of the law were required by the children of Israel prior to Jesus, who abolished those requirements with his blood.
The book of James provides a good explanation of "works." An example of a good work would be this:
"Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world." (Jam 1:27 KJV)
Philip
You don’t believe what Jesus said?
>>>If no one believes the way you do after all of the scholarship over the last thousands of years it is logical that it’s not all of them who are wrong.<<<
What does a thousand years have to do with anything? I seem to recall a people called the Jews, who for well over a thousand years had a fixed set of laws to follow; and a large majority of the Jews were convinced their “scholars” were interpreting the laws correctly.
Well, we all know the rest: that large majority of Jews followed their “scholars” straight into hell. A very wise person called that, “the blind leading the blind.”
Philip
>>>You don’t believe what Jesus said?<<<
Of course I do. Do you?
"Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake." (John 14:11 KJV)
" Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father." (John 14:12 KJV)
Are you sure you believe what Jesus said?
Philip
Colossians 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory
John 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Are you sure you believe what Jesus said? We don’t do those works. It’s Jesus in us that does them. Arrogantly try to take credit for yourself and see where it leads.
>>>Are you sure you believe what Jesus said? We don’t do those works. It’s Jesus in us that does them. Arrogantly try to take credit for yourself and see where it leads.<<<
I am not a saint. Are you?
Philip
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
>>>You have been trying to take credit for the “works” you do by saying you will be judged by the “good works” when it’s not you doing them. Still want to claim those are your “good works”?<<<
I don’t recall claiming I have done any good works, at all; not even so much as helping an elderly lady cross the street. Of course, my memory is not as good as it used to be. Could you provide a post#?
>>>I see that all the time here in these threads. Arrogant man thinking it’s he who does the “good works”. Paul said “that no man should boast”.<<<
I recall one of my earliest encounters when I came on this forum was with an arrogant, self-righteous, bossy know-it-all: clothed with the pretense of being some sort of “saint,” while falsely labeling me a preterist and a heretic. Anyone come to mind?
By the way, are you a saint? I asked you that question previously, but I did not see an answer. A simple yes or no will do.
Thanks, and may God bless you,
Philip
Quote from you: “we are most definitely judged according to our works”.
Quote from you: “We are judged by works.”
Quote from you: “We all get judged for our individual works, whether they be good or whether they be evil.”
Now tell me something. If it’s Jesus working through us rather than we doing the works why would we be judged for what Jesus does? The only way a person can make the statement “We will all get judged for our individual works” is if he thinks it’s him who is doing them rather than giving Jesus credit.
>>By the way, are you a saint?<<
Yes, I am. Paul called all believers saints.
The word “saint” comes from the Greek word hagios, which means “consecrated to God, holy, sacred, pious." It is almost always used in the plural, “saints.”
Acts 9:13 But Ananias answered, “Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how much evil he has done to your saints at Jerusalem.
Acts 9:32 Now as Peter went here and there among them all, he came down also to the saints who lived at Lydda.
Acts 26:10 And I did so in Jerusalem. I not only locked up many of the saints in prison after receiving authority from the chief priests, but when they were put to death I cast my vote against them.
Romans 12:13 Distributing to the necessity of saints; given to hospitality.
Romans 15:25 But now I go unto Jerusalem to minister unto the saints.
Romans 16:15 Salute Philologus, and Julia, Nereus, and his sister, and Olympas, and all the saints which are with them.
Ephesians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus.
Put away those Preterist glasses and scripture will become more clear to you.
Because He said we would be judged according to our works? (as in, "Because you told me to, Drill Sergeant?") Well, in one case, he said every man would be rewarded according to his works; and in another he said his reward would be to give every man according as his work shall be.
>>>The only way a person can make the statement “We will all get judged for our individual works” is if he thinks it’s him who is doing them rather than giving Jesus credit.<<<
That is only in the mind of the dispensationalist; well, there may be others.
>>>Yes, I am. Paul called all believers saints.<<<
Well, I'll be? Saint Cynical! Has a nice ring to it.
I am a believer, but I am not a saint. And I don't recall seeing anywhere in the scriptures that all believers are saints.
Of course I don't know everything, like, say, a saint. Could you point out the verse(s) for me that shows all believers are saints?
>>>The word “saint” comes from the Greek word hagios, which means “consecrated to God, holy, sacred, pious." It is almost always used in the plural, “saints.”<<<
So, you are holy, sacred and pious, as well? Is it alright if I shorten that to Holy Saint Cynical? I am not implying you are not sacred and pious; but it is a rather long title. Do you saints call each other "saint" at Church, like the early Christians did when they weren't dodging stones?
>>>Put away those Preterist glasses and scripture will become more clear to you.<<<
Okay, I put them away (I had to borrow a pair, first, so bear with me.) Where in the scripture does it say all believers are saints? It certainly does not say that all believers are saints in any of the verses you quoted.
By the way, what does this verse mean?
"Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints." (Jude 1:3 KJV)
It certainly seems that the faith of the saints was a thing of the past when Jude wrote the epistle. If that is true, then how could any Christian from the days of Jude's epistle, forward, be a saint?
Philip
“Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.” John 6:28-29
>>I am a believer, but I am not a saint.<<
Sorry to hear that. A “believer” you say? So what does that mean? You believe what?
James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Tell me the difference between what the devils believe and what you believe.
>>And I don't recall seeing anywhere in the scriptures that all believers are saints.<<
Well that doesn’t surprise me. From what I have seen you miss much of what scripture says. Here are a couple more.
Romans 1:7 to all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called saints; Grace to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ!
1 Corinthians 1:2 to the assembly of God that is in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus, called saints, with all those calling upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ in every place -- both theirs and ours:
2 Corinthians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ, through the will of God, and Timotheus the brother, to the assembly of God that is in Corinth, with all the saints who are in all Achaia:
>>Okay, I put them away (I had to borrow a pair, first, so bear with me.)<<
You are by definition a Preterist. Not sure why you keep denying it.
Preterism is a Christian eschatological view that interprets prophecies of the Bible as events which have already happened. Daniel is interpreted as events that happened in the second century BC while Revelation is interpreted as events that happened in the first century AD. Preterism holds that Ancient Israel finds its continuation or fulfillment in the Christian church at the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. The term preterism comes from the Latin praeter, which is listed in Webster's 1913 dictionary as a prefix denoting that something is "past" or "beyond," signifying that either all or a majority of Bible prophecy was fulfilled by AD 70. Adherents of preterism are commonly known as preterists. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preterism]
>> By the way, what does this verse mean?<<
You don’t believe that the message was “once for all” delivered? How many times do you think it has to be delivered? The Greek doesn’t read “faith which was once delivered” as in at one time. It reads “Once for all having been delivered to the saints”. It was delivered “once for all” as in Christ died “once for all”.
1 Peter 3:18 because also Christ once for sin did suffer -- righteous for unrighteous -- that he might lead us to God, having been put to death indeed, in the flesh, and having been made alive in the spirit,
Hebrews 9:28 so also the Christ, once having been offered to bear the sins of many, a second time, apart from a sin-offering, shall appear, to those waiting for him -- to salvation!
>> It certainly seems that the faith of the saints was a thing of the past when Jude wrote the epistle.<<
For you it may be a “thing of the past”. For true followers of Christ it “once for all” delivered. All would include “all” regardless of time. Here directly from the Greek.
Jude 1:3 …“once for all having been delivered to the saints faith”…
>>>Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.” John 6:28-29<<<
Do you believe on him that sent Jesus, Cynical? Jesus also said this:
"For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:" (John 5:22)
And Jesus, the judge, said, over and over again, we would be judged according to our works. I believe him.
I Wrote: I am a believer, but I am not a saint.
Cynical Wrote: >>>Sorry to hear that. A “believer” you say? So what does that mean? You believe what?<<<
Well, that is part of what I believe. I don't believe anyone should exalt themselves with flattering titles. Nor would I even consider exalting myself to be like those early Christians who receive the POWER of the Holy Ghost and did many wonderful and miraculous things. Those were THE saints, and not any new Christian since the days of Jude.
>>>James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. <<<
>>>Tell me the difference between what the devils believe and what you believe.<<<
The devil does all things contrary to God. For example, the devil is deceitful. He would be the type to bear false witness. I believe men should never be deceitful. Do you know anyone like that?
The devil also tends to exalt himself in his own mind. Humility is not in his play book. A Christian should be humble, always giving glory to God. Post-Apostle Christians should never exalt themselves: in particular, they should never, ever claim to be a saint, or an apostle, or label themselves in any other way beyond being a simple Christian; or, if a minister, then, as a pastor, preacher, etc.. For example, recall the parable of the Pharisee and the publican:
"Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted." (Luke 18:10-14 KJV)
Which category do you fit in, "Saint" Cynical? Tell us the difference between what the devils believe and what you believe?
I Wrote: And I don't recall seeing anywhere in the scriptures that all believers are saints.
Cynical Wrote: >>>Well that doesn’t surprise me. From what I have seen you miss much of what scripture says. Here are a couple more.<<<
>>>Romans 1:7 to all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called saints; Grace to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ!<<<
Paul was writing to all THE saints in Rome. How does that make saints out of all believers? That is quite a stretch!
>>>1 Corinthians 1:2 to the assembly of God that is in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus, called saints, with all those calling upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ in every place -- both theirs and ours:<<<
Paul was writing to two groups at the same time: those called to be Saints; and those who call upon the name of the Lord. I would be in the latter group, unless Jesus had specifically called me to be a Saint; for example by giving me the power over devils; the power to heal the sick; and the ability to speak in and understand all sorts of foreign languages, even though I was a simple fisherman, and the like.
>>>2 Corinthians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ, through the will of God, and Timotheus the brother, to the assembly of God that is in Corinth, with all the saints who are in all Achaia:<<<
Same thing. Paul is writing to the assembly in Corinth, and to all the saints in Achaia. NOTE!!! Paul never says all Christians in Achaia are saints; nor in Corinth. Modern day so-called "saints" have misinterpreted the scriptures to place themselves on a pedestal, which Jesus clearly warned us not to do.
>>>You are by definition a Preterist. Not sure why you keep denying it. Preterism is a Christian eschatological view that interprets prophecies of the Bible as events which have already happened. Daniel is interpreted as events that happened in the second century BC while Revelation is interpreted as events that happened in the first century AD. <<<
By you own definition, "Saint" Cynical, I am not a Preterist. I have never claimed the Revelation was fulfilled in the first century. Doesn't that appear to be deceitful, and not the work of a saint? But the Lord will be the judge on those works: whether they be good, or whether they be evil.
>>>Preterism holds that Ancient Israel finds its continuation or fulfillment in the Christian church at the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. The term preterism comes from the Latin praeter, which is listed in Webster's 1913 dictionary as a prefix denoting that something is "past" or "beyond," signifying that either all or a majority of Bible prophecy was fulfilled by AD 70. Adherents of preterism are commonly known as preterists. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preterism]<<<
"Saint" Cynical, it appears you grabbed that definition out of Wikipedia, not Websters. Did Websters actually use the phrase "signifying that either all or a majority…", or was that added by the user: the author of the Wiki post? I don't know. I don't have the 1913 version.
The modern-day Webster's Dictionary states: "one who believes the prophecies of the Apocalypse to have been already fulfilled."
Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary states: Preterist (Theol) One who believes the prophecies of the Apocalypse to have been already fulfilled.
WordNet 3.6: preterist a theologian who believes that the Scripture prophecies of the Apocalypse (the Book of Revelation) have already been fulfilled
Free Dictionary: Theol.) One who believes the prophecies of the Apocalypse to have been already fulfilled.
Dictionary.Com: preterist: noun: a theologian who believes that the Scripture prophecies of the Apocalypse (the Book of Revelation) have already been fulfilled
AudioEnglish.com Dictionary: Preterist A theologian who believes that the Scripture prophecies of the Apocalypse (as in the Book of Revelations) have already been fulfilled.
You are one of those "concensus" followers, aren't you? Then you should know, by consensus of dictionaries, that I am not a preterist.
I Wrote: By the way, what does this verse mean?
"Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints." (Jude 1:3 KJV)
Cynical Wrote: >>>You don’t believe that the message was “once for all” delivered? How many times do you think it has to be delivered? The Greek doesn’t read “faith which was once delivered” as in at one time. It reads “Once for all having been delivered to the saints”. It was delivered “once for all” as in Christ died “once for all”.<<<
That kind of interpretation can only come by stretching one's imagination far beyond its container. Even "Saint" Cynical's quoted translation from the Greek reads that the early Saints received "all the faith" for all of us. It never mentions what we personally receive any. The verse, itself, only requests that we try to obtain that kind of faith: not that we will ever achieve it.
How many miracles have you performed lately, "Saint" Cynical? The early and TRUE Saints healed the sick, spake in tongues, and did all sorts of miraculous things, including leaving us inspired writings that contained language far beyond their educational levels. Jesus explained faith this way:
"And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you." (Mat 17:20 KJV)
Have you seen anyone move any mountains lately? No. With that established, that no one today has faith even as a grain of mustard seed, we must seriously doubt claims of sainthood by any modern-day Christian.
>>>1 Peter 3:18 because also Christ once for sin did suffer -- righteous for unrighteous -- that he might lead us to God, having been put to death indeed, in the flesh, and having been made alive in the spirit,
>>>Hebrews 9:28 so also the Christ, once having been offered to bear the sins of many, a second time, apart from a sin-offering, shall appear, to those waiting for him -- to salvation!<<<
I am unsure what point you were trying to make with those verses, Cynical. Every Christian knows those verses. What is your point?
I Wrote: It certainly seems that the faith of the saints was a thing of the past when Jude wrote the epistle.
Cynical Wrote: >>>For you it may be a “thing of the past”. For true followers of Christ it “once for all” delivered. All would include “all” regardless of time. Here directly from the Greek. <<<
>>>Jude 1:3 …“once for all having been delivered to the saints faith”…<<<
That also reads like it happened only once, for example, on the Day of Pentecost. That seed of the Holy Ghost that Christ planted in the Saints (the true Saints: the earliest Christians) is explained in the parable of the Mustard Seed:
"… The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field: Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof." (Mat 13:31-32 KJV)
We are those birds that lodge in the branches. We are most definitely not the seed, nor the root.
The translation for the Greek word in that verse for "once" (as in, "once delivered") is:
… one (or a single) time (numerically or conclusively): — once.
It comes from a root word which means
… absolutely all or (singular) every one: — all (things), every (one), whole.
And the Greek for "delivered" means:
… to surrender, i.e. yield up, intrust, transmit.
Therefore, Christ, once, and one time only, intrusted (or, "seeded") the Saints with all faith. Therefore, a proper translation is the one written in the King James Version, which reads:
"…ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints."
And we should earnestly contend for that kind of faith. But we cannot achieve it because we are the birds in the branches, not the seed nor the roots.
Philip
And then He answered as to what those works are.
“Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.” John 6:28-29
You do believe what Jesus said don’t you?
>>Well, that is part of what I believe. I don't believe anyone should exalt themselves with flattering titles. Nor would I even consider exalting myself to be like those early Christians who receive the POWER of the Holy Ghost and did many wonderful and miraculous things. Those were THE saints, and not any new Christian since the days of Jude.<<
How sad. You claim to be a Christian yet deny being “set apart” by God.
The rest of your post simply indicates that according to your belief most all of scripture is immaterial to you and has no affect or implication for your life. How utterly sad.
What does that verse mean, "Saint" Cynical? You post it over and over again; but you never explain what you think it means?
>>>How sad. You claim to be a Christian yet deny being “set apart” by God.<<<
Oh, no, "Saint" Cynical, you have greatly misunderstood my words. What Christ has given me is far more than I will ever deserve. I wasn't beheaded, or stoned, and I did not forsake all and follow the Lamb where ever He went or sent me. Why he even considered me is a mystery I will not understand until I meet him.
Maybe these verses from Jesus will help you understand where I am coming from:
"Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he." (Mat 11:11 KJV)
"For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he." (Luke 7:28 KJV)
I don't know what you have done in your life to render you worthy of sainthood; but I certainly don't consider myself anywhere near as worthy as John the Baptist. I am not only not in his ballpark, I am not even in his league. Therefore, what kind of Christian today would think they are better, or even equal to John the Baptist? And yet, John is considered to be less than the least in the kingdom of heaven/God.
That can only mean one thing: John is not part of the ruling class of the kingdom. That was reserved for the Saints: those who received the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost, or early-on as some of the first members of the Church. They were part of the first resurrection, and they currently reign as kings and priests with Christ in heaven, as indicated in Rev 20.
Anyway, it seems like Jesus did set John apart; but not according to your logic (or illogic.) Was that a good thing, or a bad thing? Shouldn't John be, at least, your equal in the kingdom of heaven/God? Do you consider yourself as greater than, or even equal to John the Baptist, "Saint" Cynical?
How about the disciples? Do you consider yourself their equals? Do you believe Jesus will set you up as a judge with a throne, as he has the disciples?
"And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." (Mat 19:28 KJV)
>>>The rest of your post simply indicates that according to your belief most all of scripture is immaterial to you and has no affect or implication for your life. How utterly sad.<<<
Are you referring to that post, or the bulk of most of my posts that you avoid like the plague?
Frankly, "Saint" Cynical, I generally have a difficult time following you. It seems your understanding of what I write is as scatter-brained as your understanding of the scriptures. And you consider yourself a "Saint?" How cynical …
Philip
"The Clarion Project complains that the Presbyterian Church partnered with Islamists and those Islamists want to make the church their “Islamophobia” police. The Presbyterian Church (USA) and its Islamic interfaith partners have also made common cause when it comes to Israel. The Church almost voted in favor of divestment from Israel last summer, winning praise from the director of ISNA’s Office of Interfaith Relations, Sayyid Syeed."
The reason I am asking is because you, like the Clarion Group, did not distinguish the "church" that ordains homosexuals and women, with the traditional, reformed church that has been around for centuries. The half-hearted "USA" in parentheses, after first claiming the culprit was "the Presbyterian Church," leads me to believe this is simply another attempt to destroy the church from within by the Father of Lies.
I assume that was not your intention. Would it not be prudent to exercise caution when choosing articles from outside sources with unknown or hidden agendas? You know as well as I how useful the anti-semite smear has been to Satan in recent years. What was once a useful label has been turned into a tool of hate and destruction by Satan and his anti-christian forces.
Thanks,
Philip
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